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Old 07-09-2010   #41
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ill play along with you , You want HA to only bombard military structures in the coming war even if they were killing thousands of civilians here?


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Old 07-09-2010   #42
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Killing women isn't good at all.
But then they may have sons who will be in the occupation army.
Killing children also isn't good. But... I think you know what I'm going to say.

So what to do with this situation? Those who born somewhere are not responsible for it. But then they'll become.
And about HA. Maybe they'll be glad to bomb only military objects, but how they will do it?
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Old 07-09-2010   #43
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First of all i'd like to get something straight. Both of our opinions are known now. I'd like to know if you're defending your opinion or just laying ideas for discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I'll just quote myself: And you can't possibly believe that a person can be born a legitimate target for attacks. What about Israeli kids who were born this year, should they be killed because they're not civilians? If they're not legitimate targets then at what age do they become so? And if there is an age where they become legitimate targets, then does that mean that they should be killed simply because they were born to the wrong parents in the wrong country?
I'm starting to wonder if you're debating just for the sake of it or debating because you really believe what you're saying.
I guess i'll just quote myself too then
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain

Mind you they are not civilians. They are occupiers. ( and again, details are debatable regarding children...etc...Bas let's go from the top and agree on the basics before we go any further)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Occupier is something that we attribute to them. For a person that was born there, it's home even though he/she might not own the land. And it's human nature to want to stay in your home, and that's something that must be taken into consideration.
If he joins the military then he's simply doing it to defend his home, just like Palestinians who join the resistance.
The fact remains is that it's not his home. It was something that was taken by force from its rightful owners. Being born there does not give his claim any legitimacy. He's defending something he doesn't own. Period.

I do understand what you're saying and yes you do make a point. But we're discussing the facts here. If they think they have any claim to it well that's just fine and dandy but the fact of the matter is that they do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
Members of the Israeli army and members of the Palestinian Resistance are both fighting for what they believe is theirs. They are both armed and have the intention to fight each other, therefore they are both legitimate targets.
They are both fighting for what they believe in. Ok. But that does not mean Israelis have any legitimacy. In the end there is right and wrong.
You can keep justifying their beliefs according to what they think and you wouldn't be wrong either (according to what they believe in).

A quick look at the conflict's history ( which i'm sure you're more familar with than i am) will show who's right and who's wrong. ( And i'm sure that i don't need to tell you).
I guess what i'm saying is that it would probably be best if you don't go through this debate justifying their beliefs, because it doesn't come down to their beliefs in this particular debate. It comes down to what they have done, what their rights are, and how we are allowed to attack them.

Tinman also gave a good answer, i get that your sarcasm was directed towards systa. But if you could please try to answer to what Tinman posted by replying to the actual content. I'd like your opinion on the verse and how it should be applied in our fight with the Israelis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
So, does that make a mother or a daughter of an Israeli soldier that wants her son/father to come home alive a militant?
I see that you're focusing on the emotional side now. This is war. What do you want to achieve with this comment here? Where are you getting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
The fact that you only have one way of defending your self doesn't justify it if it's in any other situations unjustifiable, you are responsible for your actions and if you commit murder then you should be judged.
This is where i'm trying to get. What is "ok" in our case? I take it that firing rocket is not??



Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I'm really failing to see why an occupier can't be a civilian if he was born an "occupier", it's not like he took a gun and drove the people out, his parents or grand parents did. Maybe you have a different definition of occupier than me, could you please enlighten me?
This only applies to Israelis seeing as they are a one of a kind model in the world. What i meant here is that they do not have the rights of other civilians in war since their existence is not legitimate, reinforced with deadly force, and enforced by the international community.
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Old 07-09-2010   #44
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I just want to clear something up first before I continue the debate. I do not in any way believe that the Israelis are the ones that are right in this conflict, but just because they're wrong on some things (a lot of things) doesn't give us the right to say they are wrong about everything and just because we are right about some things doesn't mean we are right about everything.
I support the resistance, not because they fight for us, but because of the way they fight. So for you HA supporters who think we should kill civilians, HA does not agree with you.

To be honest I'm dead tired of politics. Mainly because its negative effects, inhumanity and that at it's core, it's all about a dog getting a flock of sheep to go where he wants them to go. That's why I'm focusing on the moral and "emotional" aspects and not the legal or practical. I'm not talking about what we, HA or the Palestinians should do in upcoming wars. I'm only discussing what's right and wrong, and right and wrong apply in all situations and are more important than land.

I'm also tired of people seeing things the way they want instead of how it really is (which explains the sarcasm you asked about). Think about it, can a conflict this big have one side be right about everything? To say that the whole story is that a bunch of Jews came to Palestine and invaded it is ridicules, just think about all the interference from other countries before and during the invasion. Add to that the civil war in Lebanon and the Faction war in Palestine and what you get is the biggest mess in human history.

I'm not debating for the sake of debating, I'm debating because I'm sick of the hypocrisies.

These are people, like you and me. Members in this forum should by now have shown you that if they were in the Israelis shoes they would have behaved the same.
Why don't they have the right to live if we do and are like them?

As for your argument about occupation, it doesn't make sense. Israelis aren't the first people to do this kind of thing, ex. The European colonization of the New World, the Crusaders, the Muslim conquests, the Mongol Empire, the Taliban. These all did the same thing Israel did and worse, and I said in my first post, if someone asked you if killing civilians in these wars was right, you'd say no. BUT apparently we are worth more than the average human or maybe we are "chosen" or something like that, because the general opinion is that we have the right to do things that others don't.

There are things more important than land, like lives, education, health, etc. But politics have got people to desire death, not because of the things I mentioned nor because of the land but because one politician thinks that his pride is worth sacrificing lives for. The only causes worth dying for are freedom and life.

A little off topic but if you want my political views regarding the conditions for peace with Israel then they one of these:
1. Palestinians accept defeat. (By Palestinians I mean the people not the aristocrats)
2. Palestinians agree to a two state solution.
3. The Palestinians act like the Israelis.
(these conditions are very simplified)

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Old 07-10-2010   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibllise View Post
Why do u want to kill if u believe in God?
Mouwewo

Anyways, I have my own personal view regarding "civilians". I have read all your replies, Kain's, Bilal's, Adam's, tarek's, russian's, Hassan's, mr_j's and even systa's too .

But those comments did not convince the reason that we should kill civilians even if they were "A community serving the army". Didn't the ppl from South (for e.g.) help HA in any way?? At least by providing them with food or a shelter or something? The Israelis call us "A community serving terrorism" and that give them the right to kill US as civilians. And i am totally against them in both points:

1- Terrorism is in their blood and not ours
2- These people (HA) who are being called "terrorists" are in fact a resistance and nothing much.

Personally, I do not agree with HA in politics and stuff like that. But i cannot deny the fact that I would love to see them whooping those Israelis' ass if they attack us or do anything else again. But I am also against the idea of killing their civilians too, even if they provided shelters, food, guns, help, etc... I don't care. You are strong when you beat the strongest, in other words, the man who is pulling the gun to ur face, holding the bombs, and driving the tanks... That's what you should destroy, their troops and their territories. hek betzellouwon!
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Old 07-10-2010   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I just want to clear something up first before I continue the debate. I do not in any way believe that the Israelis are the ones that are right in this conflict, but just because they're wrong on some things (a lot of things) doesn't give us the right to say they are wrong about everything and just because we are right about some things doesn't mean we are right about everything.
I never in any way meant to say that you support them. It's just that I wanted to make sure if you were stating your opinion or stating theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I support the resistance, not because they fight for us, but because of the way they fight. So for you HA supporters who think we should kill civilians, HA does not agree with you.
When it comes to our civilians versus theirs the equation changes. And it's not that we SHOULD as you're saying. I've already made myself clear when i said i support what H@ssan said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
To be honest I'm dead tired of politics. Mainly because its negative effects, inhumanity and that at it's core, it's all about a dog getting a flock of sheep to go where he wants them to go. That's why I'm focusing on the moral and "emotional" aspects and not the legal or practical. I'm not talking about what we, HA or the Palestinians should do in upcoming wars. I'm only discussing what's right and wrong, and right and wrong apply in all situations and are more important than land.
Emotions can often get in the way of sound judgement. Especially when your countrymen's lives depend on it. This is not about politics.

Though what you said about politics is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I'm also tired of people seeing things the way they want instead of how it really is (which explains the sarcasm you asked about). Think about it, can a conflict this big have one side be right about everything? To say that the whole story is that a bunch of Jews came to Palestine and invaded it is ridicules, just think about all the interference from other countries before and during the invasion. Add to that the civil war in Lebanon and the Faction war in Palestine and what you get is the biggest mess in human history.
Right...and??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I'm not debating for the sake of debating, I'm debating because I'm sick of the hypocrisies.
Point out the hypocrisies one by one. I want a clear stand from you on whether we are allowed to fire rockets on the occupied territories during war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
These are people, like you and me. Members in this forum should by now have shown you that if they were in the Israelis shoes they would have behaved the same.
People yes. Enemies yes. Righteous no.
We know we're righteous in this conflict and it's our duty to defend ourselves and our countrymen any way we can. Again, don't make it sound like i support committing mass murder or keeping Israeli casualities at a maximum (when it's about women and children).

But we have civilians too that need to be protected at any cost whatsoever, or did you forget about them?
And concerning the members talking about how righteous it is to kill Israeli women and children you understand that this view does not have my support. Again, I might sound that i changed my view just there, but only because, as stated, this is debatable.

And again, we need to agree on the basics first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
Why don't they have the right to live if we do and are like them?
They have every right to live when they don't threaten our existence. Then they're putting us, themselves and their families in danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
As for your argument about occupation, it doesn't make sense. Israelis aren't the first people to do this kind of thing, ex. The European colonization of the New World, the Crusaders, the Muslim conquests, the Mongol Empire, the Taliban. These all did the same thing Israel did and worse, and I said in my first post, if someone asked you if killing civilians in these wars was right, you'd say no.
This is where the point of righteousness comes up. This is where the point of the evolution of warfare comes up.

edit: Or do you think that entering a house with women an children and slaughtering with your sword or exterminating them with the AK is as brutal as firing a missile on that house?? I'm not saying let's fire missiles on houses full of women and children. But this is a question of brutality. Just to respond to your remark about killing innocents during the inquisitions etc....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
BUT apparently we are worth more than the average human or maybe we are "chosen" or something like that, because the general opinion is that we have the right to do things that others don't.
I hope this is not addressed to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
There are things more important than land, like lives, education, health, etc.
Exactly, the 2nd being the most important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
But politics have got people to desire death,
not because of the things I mentioned nor because of the land but because one politician thinks that his pride is worth sacrificing lives for. The only causes worth dying for are freedom and life.
Let's be more specific, i wouldn't want to reply to this particular part without being 100% sure what you're talking about. Who are you referring to here? Hezbollah?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
A little off topic but if you want my political views regarding the conditions for peace with Israel then they one of these:
1. Palestinians accept defeat. (By Palestinians I mean the people not the aristocrats)
2. Palestinians agree to a two state solution.
3. The Palestinians act like the Israelis.
(these conditions are very simplified)
Well now i'd be lying if i said i wasn't shocked to hear this coming from you.

In any case this'll go to another heated thread As soon as we're done with this one.
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Old 07-10-2010   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
When it comes to our civilians versus theirs the equation changes.
The fact that the target is a civilian should tell you that the person is not armed and gunning for you, what gives you the right to rob him of his life?
The fact that the government should be representing his views doesn't justify it. (Read below my quote to know why.)
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
Members in this forum should by now have shown you that if they were in the Israelis shoes they would have behaved the same.
...
The fact that these members think like the Israelis, should point out that people in general like to see the truth that benefits them the most. How many of the Lebanese will tell you to stop if you acted unjustly against an Israeli? Very few. How many Israelis would tell their army to stop if they saw the army acting unjustly against a Palestinian? Very few.
Let's say that tomorrow our army becomes the strongest in the world, the army defeats the Israeli army and commit hundreds of war crimes against civilians. It'll be several generations before people start to question their army's actions, and if the Israelis start a ragtag militia and start fighting us then our population will never acknowledge the injustice.
Should our civilians be killed then? Simply for acting like humans are programmed to do?
While people should look at things with less selfishness, it's clear that they don't, whether Israeli or Lebanese. And punishing someone for being what he is instead of what he has done is something I believe is wrong, but you are welcome to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Emotions can often get in the way of sound judgement. Especially when your countrymen's lives depend on it. This is not about politics.
I'm not talking about my emotions, I'm talking about theirs. Even the most brutal men have them, that's what keeps them human but in pure politics there is zero humanity.
That's why I'm taking their emotions into consideration (Our civilians emotions too, but I'm not talking about them cause my stand should be obvious).
I'm interested in a deep debate, not a shallow one. That's why I'm pretty much ignoring some of the other members.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Right...and??
I'm just pointing out that the conflict is bigger that them slapping us and us slapping them back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Point out the hypocrisies one by one.
I'm not going to point them out one by one. Basically it's everyone who thinks that we are allowed to act in a certain way while others don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I want a clear stand from you on whether we are allowed to fire rockets on the occupied territories during war.
HA has the right to fire rockets, this is how warfare is conducted in our time, I know that. But they still have an obligation to avoid civilian casualties.

And ideally (while highly impractical) a neutral court should judge all cases where a HA member has killed an Israeli civilian, whether by accident or not.
And before someone gets their balls tangled up, yes, Israelis who kill civilians should too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
People yes. Enemies yes. Righteous no.
We know we're righteous in this conflict
Righteous from our point of view.
History is filled with lies, we like to ignore the truth when it makes us unrighteous, think about this before you answer, this is undeniable. (Again, so do they...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
and it's our duty to defend ourselves and our countrymen any way we can. Again, don't make it sound like i support committing mass murder or keeping Israeli casualities at a maximum (when it's about women and children).

But we have civilians too that need to be protected at any cost whatsoever, or did you forget about them?
And concerning the members talking about how righteous it is to kill Israeli women and children you understand that this view does not have my support. Again, I might sound that i changed my view just there, but only because, as stated, this is debatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
They have every right to live when they don't threaten our existence. Then they're putting us, themselves and their families in danger.
I'm going to summarize my view on these points, mainly because it's stated further up in my post.
1. It's our right and duty to defend our civilians but not with all methods and at any cost.
2. I know you don't support mass murders, but just because it's not mass murder doesn't mean it's right. Simple murder is wrong too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
This is where the point of righteousness comes up. This is where the point of the evolution of warfare comes up.

edit: Or do you think that entering a house with women an children and slaughtering with your sword or exterminating them with the AK is as brutal as firing a missile on that house?? I'm not saying let's fire missiles on houses full of women and children. But this is a question of brutality. Just to respond to your remark about killing innocents during the inquisitions etc....
You could kill an innocent man quickly with a sniper bullet in his head or slowly by poking him with stick, in both cases it's wrong even though one is more brutal than the other.
You are also forgetting that I'm defending the civilians right to live, not the soldiers. It's not the civilian that's firing the artillery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
I hope this is not addressed to me.
Now you've hurt my feeling, you really think I could accuse you of hypocrisy?

But you have to find it amusing that most of the Jew haters hate them because the Jews believe they are chosen by God, while in fact they act as if they are chosen by God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kain View Post
Let's be more specific, i wouldn't want to reply to this particular part without being 100% sure what you're talking about. Who are you referring to here? Hezbollah?
I was referring to Hamas & Iran but it does apply to HA to some extent as well.
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Old 07-10-2010   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
The fact that the target is a civilian should tell you that the person is not armed and gunning for you, what gives you the right to rob him of his life?
The fact that the government should be representing his views doesn't justify it. (Read below my quote to know why.)
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
Members in this forum should by now have shown you that if they were in the Israelis shoes they would have behaved the same.
...
The fact that these members think like the Israelis, should point out that people in general like to see the truth that benefits them the most. How many of the Lebanese will tell you to stop if you acted unjustly against an Israeli? Very few. How many Israelis would tell their army to stop if they saw the army acting unjustly against a Palestinian? Very few.
Let's say that tomorrow our army becomes the strongest in the world, the army defeats the Israeli army and commit hundreds of war crimes against civilians. It'll be several generations before people start to question their army's actions, and if the Israelis start a ragtag militia and start fighting us then our population will never acknowledge the injustice.
Should our civilians be killed then? Simply for acting like humans are programmed to do.
While people should look at things with less selfishness, it's clear that they don't, whether Israeli or Lebanese. And punishing someone for being what he is instead of what he has done is something I believe is wrong, but you are welcome to disagree.
Now i'm clearly not saying mass murder and i'm clearly not saying unjustifiable attack.
SHN and HA have always seen to it that "civilian" casualties be kept to a bare minimum.

But the fact remains is that they are occupiers that enforce their existence by force. ( You'll get my full answer to this as i reply)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I'm not talking about my emotions, I'm talking about theirs. Even the most brutal men have them, that's what keeps them human but in pure politics there is zero humanity.
That's why I'm taking their emotions into consideration (Our civilians emotions too, but I'm not talking about them cause my stand should be obvious).
I'm interested in a deep debate, not a shallow one. That's why I'm pretty much ignoring some of the other members.

HA has the right to fire rockets, this is how warfare is conducted in our time, I know that. But they still have an obligation to avoid civilian casualties.
Yes i understand what you mean. But you must understand that this is war. I'm sure you've heard SHN's speeches and how he stated that warfare will be conducted from now on. Every port they bombard, they get a port bombarded. For ever airport they bombard they get an airport bombarded.

If civilian lives from our side are lost then we have every right to respond accordingly. It's not pretty, but it's our right. They put their citizen's lives at risk by targeting our citizens. Otherwise we wouldn't have the right to attack their citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
And ideally (while highly impractical) a neutral court should judge all cases where a HA member has killed an Israeli civilian, whether by accident or not.
And before someone gets their balls tangled up, yes, Israelis who kill civilians should too.
If HA started killing their civilians then i would be more than happy to say yes. Otherwise HA's reply would be only legitimate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
Righteous from our point of view.
History is filled with lies, we like to ignore the truth when it makes us unrighteous, think about this before you answer, this is undeniable. (Again, so do they...)
Ok you've got my attention. I want to see where you're going with this idea. By that i mean if you can provide examples of this conflict of how unrighteous we have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I'm going to summarize my view on these points, mainly because it's stated further up in my post.
1. It's our right and duty to defend our civilians but not with all methods and at any cost.
2. I know you don't support mass murders, but just because it's not mass murder doesn't mean it's right. Simple murder is wrong too.
1- I agree. If by that you mean we get to defend our citizens at any cost IF our civilian's lives are at risk. Meaning that if Israelis intentionally target civilians ( which they always do)
2- It's only wrong in certain situations. Not in self defense and not when we reply to the murder of our civilians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
You could kill an innocent man quickly with a sniper bullet in his head or slowly by poking him with stick, in both cases it's wrong even though one is more brutal than the other.
Exactly my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
You are also forgetting that I'm defending the civilians right to live, not the soldiers. It's not the civilian that's firing the artillery.
But it's the government and the soldier who is putting their civilian's lives at risk when they allow the murder of our civilians. They should only expect the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
Now you've hurt my feeling, you really think I could accuse you of hypocrisy?
I had a doubtful moment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
But you have to find it amusing that most of the Jew haters hate them because the Jews believe they are chosen by God, while in fact they act as if they are chosen by God.
It's sad too if you think about it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam
I was referring to Hamas & Iran but it does apply to HA to some extent as well.
Well now you've actually hurt my feelings.

I don't think a history lesson is in order to tell you what pride is to us. Why we would want to die proud than lead oppressed lives. You understand that mentality.

It's not about wishing death either. It's the complete opposite. ( I'm also sure you understand that ideology so i don't have to go through the details)

(If i should explain then tell me)
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Old 07-11-2010   #49
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I've been going through the thread again just to make sure everything's A ok on my side. Just to be clear when i said i support what H@ssan said, I was talking about the fact that Israeli shelters keep them safe and minimize their "civilian" casualties, not that it's not justified to attack them when they attack us.

edit: Just to be clear. I'm using the term civilian loosely when it comes to Israelis
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Old 07-11-2010   #50
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im still waiting for adam to give his perception about how HA should deal with the israeli killing civilians in the coming war.
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israelis, killing



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