Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

hehehehe i read that :P now you will get banned for real :P

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

You just opened a VERY loooooooooooooooong,boring and useless discussion...mr_j is going to be here soon....Allah yseme7kon :'(

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

no, no free will :huh:

there is only interests
no matter what you do in life, it is not a choice, it's just a decision that suits your best interest at that particular point
opening this thread was the best thing justin could have done at that defined moment, and to him it seemed the most convenient thing to do.so he opened it, there were alternatives of course, but this was the best one at that time to him. so he was drawn to doing so, not a choice.
if you find 20 $ in the middle of a perfectly empty street, your "choices" are "pick it up or leave it" you can also eat it, rip it apart etc... but doesn't matter it fits under pick it up or leave it :huh: how many would leave it on the ground? is that really a 50 by 50 choice?
even what seems to be acts of "sacrifice" and "devotion" and whatever
I still see that as convenient to the person doing it
example: when you stop eating for the sake of religion, or when you use all your paycheck to buy a gift for the one you love
it would seem like there is nothing in it for you and that you are making a "sacrifice" but you're not actualy
you pray because you believe God is listening(I'm not questionning wether it is true or not, so lets not argue here) you bought that gift because you want the one you love to like you more, it's about you, it's human nature to go with best interest

believing in God and not believing in God is also not a choice really, it depends where you were born, how you were raised, how many atheist would you find in saudis arabia? did they really choose to be believers?

meh I can go at this forever, just poke at my arguments and toss me some more arguments, it's better than me talking to myself <<<----that is also my most convenient decision

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

He'll tell you the same thing he told me:p
That you don't have free will...you have more interest in sitting here replying to him...you're compelled to do that more than you're compelled to do something else...

His version of free will is having a scale where both sides weigh exactly the same and then you'd have to choose between them:p

Other than that there is no free will...just a side that's better than the other.

What i kept saying to him again and again over the 3 hour long discussion we had is that:
The fact that u have 2 sides is the result of your free will...
The fact that one side weighs more than the other is because you think it's better....you don't always make the logical choice...sometimes your instincts and emotions get in the way...

His example ( the one he might give later on ) of the scale is false because if there is no free will then there is no other side to begin with.

He's talking either about VERY general stuff or diving into VERY detailed ideas and missing everything that's in the middle.

Going to the bathroom because you need to pee isn't really a good example Joe...it's your nature...you can choose to go to the bathroom whenever you want to...mesh enno 7a on7osir ya3ne i have no choice in the matter.

P.S: You don't always choose what goes along with your interest :)

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

So you're compelled to do it right where you are to prove it to him:p
There's no escaping his arguments:p that's because he thinks interests and being compelled to do something don't classify within having free will:p


edit: he doesn't think:p he's compelled to follow this type of reasoninglool

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

When you think about what to do and actually do it it's called making a choice....not being driven to do so:)

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

damn he read me like a map
this is never going to end
to be free is to be completly at ease with whatever options you have
you also missed the example where I asked you if you can shoot your sister :hawhaw:
obstacles are more than just material stuff that you can see and feel
example:
am I free not to go to the university tomorrow? the apparent answer would be yes I can do that, just don't set the alarm clock, just keep sleeping till you miss the bus
that simple

but you know well that I would never do that, I can never do that, because on my scale of interests, I care about the tuition fees I paid and the future I have in mind more than spending an extra day home. it just works like that, best interest decisions, the temptation/threat equation

religion works like that
how people came so convinced with religion? be good you go to heaven, be bad you go to hell
let me go a bit to the edge here, if God sent a messenger today, and that messenger came out on TV and said"hence forward everyone who dies is going to hell, sorry we love you as always, but we just ran out of room in heaven :hawhaw:" don't tell me this could never happen just focus on the idea.
if that happened, how many people will still worship the same as always?


decisions simply work by best interests
I can alter your decisions by putting more interests for you on the opposite side :W

what you define as best interest is not your choice, it's your nature and depends on your accident of birth. girls/boys rich/poor etc...

edit: about the thinking, this is how you measure what is your best interest
do I study or do I keep arguing kain
I will show you how this is going in my mind right now

arguing kain:
I don't feel like studying(5 points)
I don't want kain to win the argument(3 points)
delaying the response might seem like I have nothing to say(10 points)

studying:

my organic exam is 30% of my grade (5 points)
I know nothing about the material(5 points)
the course costs 1200 $ (5 points)

this is what I thought about and came out with the decision of arguing kain

now my decision would have been changed only if some reason on the above was added or substracted
proving me wrong is now added to your interests
but would you have done that if the argument did not start
would you have woke up one day saying "I will not enter the toilet today, heyk because I choose not to? "

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

That doesn't apply to all cases :)

Leave my sister alone:p

Yes you are:p
Or you can just not go to class:D

you can...bas you would not:)
it's different:)
Can does not = Would

I can give you a perfect example...deAtheganized:)
He can tell you his story better than i can ( not that you don't already know it)

But if it could never happen this doesn't apply as an example or even a logical argument....because IT CAN NEVER HAPPEN.
You're taking the exact opposite of something that is true and that everyone knows is true and basing your argument on something that is therefore false.
If it can never happen than it can't and you can't tell us to debate on the fact that it MIGHT happen because it WON'T...because reality DOES NOT work that way!!


We don't always choose what's in our best interest:)
Decisions mean that there is a free will or a choice in the process...if there is a choice then i am FREE to choose whatever i want to choose.

and it also depends on the decisions you've made in life :)

You...a believer in God...and heaven and hell...say that there is no free will..well then your view is messed up.
no free will= no heaven and hell because God is just
no heaven and hell = inequality...the murderer would get away with his crime and good deeds would go unrewarded :)
Unless God is inequal...then he is imperfect...but You sir believe that God is perfect....so explain that would you?

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

I placed it in the edit
you did that to prove me wrong
proving me wrong at that point was more important than not messing up the floor :hawhaw:

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Not to him...but you proved to me that your chair should be thrown out or cleaned with acid :p

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

lets leave God out of it otherwise it will just grow bigger
I said suppose
suppose
why wouldn't it never happen?
God can do anything right? and I doubt you could predict him
anyway lets let the God thing out of it

no I can't
this is what this subject is all about
I am trying to prove to you that some of the apparent decisions you think you can do, are not actualy there
you can also choose to throw yourself out the balcony this second kamen right?
you simply can't do it, it's not an option

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Having an interest in something more than the other doesn't mean you don't have free will...it's the other way around...it's a key part of making a choice...

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Ability: The quality of being able to do something, especially the physical, mental, financial, or legal power to accomplish something.

Capability: A talent or ability that has potential for development or use.

Shooting my sister :hawhaw:
I am able to do that...
I physically CAN pick up a gun...CAN pull the trigger and CAN shoot my sweet sister:p

But i WOULD not because i love my sister.

WOULD anyone with a degree in english help us here:D?

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

you can argue me in english litterature all day
but it will not help
just try to see my point

there are mental barriers or emotionnal barriers or whatever that make up an obstacle
you can't shoot your sister because you love her
and basicly you have no reason to

that is an obstacle that will stop you from doing so

see if you have a choice, than there is a chance that one day you will make the choice of la sama7 allah shooting her
bas there is not even a 0.00000001% of that
it is not an option for you
it is not possible

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

It's not:)
Bas 3am 2ellak i can....bas i won't:)
End of discussion...
And since i want this discussion to end answer me regarding what i said earlier:)
You avoided it during our 3 hour long chat but u won't now:p

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

about what exactly?
and how do you consider shooting your sister as something you can do?
there are stuff that you cannot do
tab leyk a different example
a gunman entering the bank, places a gun on the cashier's head and asks for all the money
and he gets all the money and leaves

was the cash man free not to give him the money?
when the police catches the gunman and the employee for investigation
who goes to jail? it was the employee who gave the money, who took them out of the safe
but there is nothing on him

because he was not free !

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Shou osstak enta w hal examples??

A grandma who is 40 walks into a bathroom with 3 30 year old mothers...two of them wearing bras and one isn't......etc etc..

enno l3ama!!

1- the employee could have refused to give him money...but he was just not ready to sacrifice his life for that.

2- The employee had a gun to his head. He was not holding a gun...nor was he an accomplice to the crime. If the system worked the way you're thinking ( employee being responsible) then i would also be guilty if i defended my property or my family or my country LOL...

3- I was talking about the heaven/hell ...God..and inequality part:)

I expect an answer in the next post and don't avoid it:)

edit: about the sister part.
It's something that i can do...i already explained how:)

BUT I WOULD NOT DO IT BECAUSE I LOVE HER:D

CLEAR NOW:D?

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

I am not avoiding it
w I told you bil conversation that I was doubting the whole religion thing because of that
if god wanted you to be free, why did he tell you about heaven and hell
how are you supposed to be free if he tells you, "commit sins and you will be fried in hell for the end of time":wtf: by not doing what God wants, I'd be like the employee that chose to take the bullet to his head
if the gun was not held to his head, and he gave the money to the guman(who was unarmed and a real friendly guy :hawhaw: ) he would have been judged and imprisonned
but the gun to his head made him innocent
because there was no choice

edit: loving her is the obstacle eliminating the option of killing her :huh:
at least we both agree your sis will live :hawhaw:

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

I'm not gonna read all this debate, but I got one question, if you don't have a choice like some say, what's the point of life?

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Yes you are and you still haven't answered the question i asked.

Yes you did but you also said you believe that God is just:)

Btalle3lak l chat log la farjik what i answered and how you said i was right:p??
I won't answer it again:p

Also handled in the discussion:)
Depends on the view of each religion and the sins.
If he's reeking havoc in the world then he sure as hell deserved to spend all eternity there.

Right
No...there was little choice.
And the law enforcement officials don't expect civilians to die to deny a robber from taking away money...that's their job.

The option is there but the chance of that happening is like 0.0000000001%
What if she turned out to be a spy and she held a gun to my head and she was ready to kill me and my family lool
I would kill her thenlool

Not unless you gave an example where she dies:p

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

this is not going to end
I'm gonna go study organic while waiting for someone else to step into the argument :huh:

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

this was done in less than an hour actually:p
He doesn't have a social life and i had some time on my hands:p

P.S: he really doesn't though): Ask him :hawhaw:

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Why doesn't anyone wanna answer my question? :'(

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

I apologize on behalf of mr_j:p

He was compelled to ignore your question and study nowlool

hopefully if he's not chicken he'll answer soon :huh:...i need an answer too :huh:

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

chou khas what is the point of life?

you're still happy w you still want to live

I didn't get your question :think:

what I really want is to study my chemistry
but so far I was unable to do so

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

he means...ya ebne...what's the point of our creation?

i mean...if we don't have free will then a higher power must be planning our every action.
So what's the point of that higher power whom we refer to as God for creating us??

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

you feel there is a point to your creation?

there are 6 billions and a half (maybe more) people in the universe
you're just one of them
you were not exactly hand picked to be on the earth.
w 100 years ago there were like 3 billion people that were completly different from the 6 billions that exist now
etc...
by the time this world ends, you could count trillions of people that walked this earth

you think there is a purpose for each one?
we will just live our lives and then, hopefullly a long time from now, eventualy die, and 100 years from now, even your descendant won't know your name, or anything about you, and there will be no more evidence that you existed.

aslan the whole world will eventualy end, maybe a thousand years from now, maybe billions of years from now, doesn't matter. it will end, everything humanity did will be washed up

we exist, just be happy about it :hawhaw:

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Lol, this doesn't mean that we don't have a free will... I'm sorry but I don't see a link between what you said here and the free will.

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

good, at least my point got through

wether or not you are completly driven by "best interest" or not is a secondary thing to me

but I want to prove to kain that some stuff that appear possible are impossible

me not going to the university, or deciding to shoot myself tomorrow noon are no options
they are not possible
I cannot choose them :ohgod:
argue me here

Re: Did I freelly start this thread?
 

Man, the two things you mentioned about shooting yourself and not going to university are possible and they are two options!
You are free to shoot yourself when you find a good reason for it!
Since there is no reason why should I shoot myself then it's not an option for me!
You are free!