سلعة مجهّزة

[Kain]

Originally Posted by Adam

@Kain:

This is the reply from the late Sayyed Muhammed Hussein Fadlallah to a questions regarding the legitimasy of Muta'a:



EDIT: Don't go all trigger happy with your gun now

Ah no no I should have been more precise...my bad...

I wasn't talking about the act of sex itself, i was talking about adultery. By "the act itself" i thought you meant adultery.

Anyway, what i want to know is your opinion, is it a sin only because of the rights of the child born from this act?? Doesn't it extend to the damage done to society?? ...or possibly other reasons

I'd like to know your opinion....i'm not really looking for a debate( if you can find sources i would be more than grateful...and links to your sources as well)

and regarding your edit:

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Kain

I wasn't talking about the act of sex itself, i was talking about adultery. By "the act itself" i thought you meant adultery.

Was the article about adultery?

Originally Posted by Kain

Anyway, what i want to know is your opinion, is it a sin only because of the rights of the child born from this act?? Doesn't it extend to the damage done to society?? ...or possibly other reasons

From what I understood, the child's rights are of the main reasons. Another reason is the woman's rights (ex. the fathers obligation to pay her if he doesn't help in raising the child).

And what exactly do you mean by damage to society? A child left by his father can be seen as damage to society.

As for sources check the sayyed's website, that's where I get most of my info on the internet (really don't trust anyone else in these matters).

[Kain]

Originally Posted by Adam

Was the article about adultery?

Not clearly no. But the hint about girls not being virgins signals divorced women or girls who have had premarital sex.

But is was H@ssan's reply that threw me off really One moment the topic is mainly about sex then it's about zena. And you replied to that part.

Originally Posted by Adam

From what I understood, the child's rights are of the main reasons. Another reason is the woman's rights (ex. the fathers obligation to pay her if he doesn't help in raising the child).

Ok great, no problem there.

Originally Posted by Adam

And what exactly do you mean by damage to society? A child left by his father can be seen as damage to society.

Mainly the different factors that may influence society because of this one single act (mainly the family) or if this act becomes a norm in society as a whole.
edit: and by act i mean premarital sex.

Originally Posted by Adam

As for sources check the sayyed's website, that's where I get most of my info on the internet (really don't trust anyone else in these matters).

Few can be trusted in these matters
And you just reminded me of the promise i failed to keep so far regarding the other topic I'll get to translating soon

[Neoxter]

I think we should visit the 'garden'

[Kain]

Originally Posted by Neoxter

I think we should visit the 'garden'

Oh hell no You visit them if you want to but i'll stay out

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Kain

Mainly the different factors that may influence society because of this one single act (mainly the family) or if this act becomes a norm in society as a whole.
edit: and by act i mean premarital sex.

Sex being a norm in society is only a problem if sex is seen as something shameful, which it's not from an Islamic point of view.

As for premarital sex, a definition of marriage and it's purpose are necessary to make an argument. The definition of marriage varies widely, depending on what point of view you are looking from and in what context. I'm going to explain the way I see marriage from a legal Islamic stand point (not a humanitarian).
__________________________________________________ ____
A marriage is a contract, just like any other. The two involved agree on something and they are bound by this contract to fulfill it's conditions as best as they can. Islam requires such a contract for two people to engage in sexual activity. The contract is required in order to secure everyone's rights and not have anyone ending up in a situation that can make their life miserable (such as a single mom, raising a child alone *keep in mind working women were not as common back in the days of the prophet*).
Because the primary reason for marriage is sexual activity, and because sexual satisfaction is acknowledged as a need just as important as eating, both partners agree to fulfill each others sexual desires when needed.
Another one of the obligations is the husbands duty to provide his wife with shelter, food, cloths, etc. This might seem as an unnecessary rule in the 21st century but you know, back in the day...bla bla bla..falalalala lalalala...
Apart from these two there are no major obligations other that the rules that govern divorce, kids and such.
The notion that a wife has to cook and clean for her husband is complete B.S. If a wife works in the house as a cleaner or as a cook, she has the right to ask for compensation from her husband because the contract does not say that she has to do those things, food and shelter are the husbands responsibility. (Yes guys, I understand that the contract pretty much screws us over, but you wanna get laid don't you? And the Game aint never been fair)

(Love, family and Eskimo kisses are all spices that can be added but are not necessary, although they are highly recommended.)
__________________________________________________ ____


So to the point, if premarital sex is a taboo, it should be for the reason that it does not guard each of the partners rights and not because sex is a shameful act.
But do people see premarital sex as a taboo for the right reason, no they don't.
And doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, is doing wrong.

[Kain]

^^^

Exactly...

1- Great introduction

2- Why do people think it's wrong??? Because the girl is simply not a virgin and that's the wrong thing???
(Not defending the people ...Just getting to the core of the subject)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Kain

^^^

Exactly...

1- Great introduction

2- Why do people think it's wrong??? Because the girl is simply not a virgin and that's the wrong thing???
(Not defending the people ...Just getting to the core of the subject)

Virginity does have a value in most societies, I'm not going to argue against that, even thought it means very little to me.
But the fact that they mix cultural values with religious values gets on my nerves. And even worse is when a girl is punished in the name of God, when God hasn't condemned the action she has taken.

There are so many rules the "religious" follow that are based on nothing but tradition. Some things are even based on traditions that the prophet banned (ex. honor killings).

Ignorance and arrogance are why people do these stupid things, there just isn't more to it than that.
You must have seen it too, when some idiot stands up and starts making his own fatwas for his own personal gain.
These kinds of things stack up over the years and you end up where we are now (honor killing, mutilation, al-Qaida).

[mr_j]

I found this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/arabic/news...00/1328920.stm

it is dated 2005, apparently we have a law in lebanon that justifies men killing women if they commit adultery
and this

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=lb

women in lebanon have problems in laws and in society, we can't pretend it is not happening, and girls, don't think to yourselves"it's not going to be me" because all of the victims thought that way, no woman willingly and knowingly walked into these problems