Is Religion Useful?

[Gilgamesh]

I have been debating religion with people for a while along with the notion of "god" and whether such a being exists....I noticed that there were only three ways to proceed in defense of religion:

1- Arguing that one's religion is right (Islam,Christianity,Judaism,Buddhism or whatever your religion is)

2- Arguing that religion is useful to the individual,society, or/and humanity.

3- Arguing that atheism is dogmatic and illogical.

In this thread I am interested to hear your ideas about the second point....Do you think religion is useful and why? Do you think it currently plays an important role or are we better off without it?

[Kain]

Actually it does. The simplest idea would be the moral codes a religion preaches for. Compassion towards your fellow man, love, friendship, tolerance, patience, standing up for what's right, upholding justice, looking outfor your fellow human. This would be be on an individual level. Should there be a society where everyone would uphold religious standards then one can imagine how such a place would become prosperous and sought out for by many.

in summation, upholding this moral code can bring forth a strong society in which everyone can find refuge and help. No doors would be shut for the needy, homes would be available for the homeless. But society has reached a point where pauverty is acceptable, normal and/or inevitable in some cases. Religions have deviated to a certain point from their original calling and the righteous are now a minority.

P.S: and i have also been debating religion for a fair amount of time now.

[khello]

religion is a good think to us but bad to all the world cz many wars were made due to religion example Lebanese war so religion didn't bring anything to Lebanon but wars and problems ... but it is good in many ways and if we knew how to use it in life .

[Sheriff Ice]

well i didnt vote, cuz we cant assume if religion has positive or negative effect,

eno for me religions as a whole are different way to GOD

[Sheriff Ice]

well i didnt vote, cuz we cant assume if religion has positive or negative effect,

eno for me religions as a whole are different way to GOD

[Gilgamesh]

Thanks for replying everyone and for your ideas....

Kain, Do you think that it is an accident that the moral conducts you said religion preaches are found in most religions at least to some extent?

Here is the thing, there are two possibilities:
1- All religions are actually sent by god and are true to some extent if we forget what u called "deviation" that made them run astray. BTW this is something most religious ppl from all denominations will passionately and fiercely refuse 'cause still most religions think the others are wrong.

2- This is what I really think is the case. These similar moral conducts found in all religions are actually in the nature of man. After having to live in small tribes and communities where cooperation was vital for survival,man became intrinsically moral and inherently ethical to an extent that his survival requires. This is the fact that kept us from extinction while 99% of species to ever live on this planet faced that fate. We realized,our ancestors did,that for instance hunting with your neighbor everyday and dividing the meal pays off more than stealing what he hunts today or than killing him and eating him(I think I don't to explain why).

So what religion actually did is just wrote these ethical tendencies down in scriptures and books and claimed a lot more along with these. What did they claim? The earth is flat (Bible),the sun goes around the earth (bible), the world was created in 4004 B.C(bible), killing people who renounce Christianity is a must(bible), killing everyone but monotheists is a must(Koran), war as a means to spread faith (bible and koran). I can go on forever. But aside from scripture a closer look to our world today will show you the enormous harm religion does everyday.

[Kain]

Nice reply.

1- i really didn't understand that part

2- I am a fierce believer. Deviation from religion which bonds us to this moral conduct led us to run astray from morality itself. Tell me where christianity is upheld when people who claim to be christians and believers are actually commiting sins such as pre-marital sex, which the bible itself forbids. Even the teachings have deviated from those of the bible's.
Same for the worldwise "image" of islam. People seen as muslims commit honor killings, kill civilians, start wars, kidnap and kill women and children.

My point is that if you really look at it, those people are not following the true teachings of islam or christianity and cannot be counted as followers if they are in direct opposition of the teachings they claim to uphold.
I said something about the righteous being a minority, pay close attention to that as islam in its true form, as well as the true form of christianity might pass you by.
True muslims and true christians who uphold the true teachings are the true upholders of the moral conduct that we are discussing.
I doubt that you are unaware of what the teachings uphold. A true muslim can never harm an innocent, a true christian would never go against his own teachings, and vice versa.
Religion can be harmful when misused or misinterpreted or used as a way to bring conflict among people. ( Look at the USA's policy in Irak )
But i'm saying that religion, if upheld would bring forth a great society. I don't think you would disagree.

Misinterpreting and misusing religion = bad

Upholding it, thereby upholding good moral conduct = VERY good.

[Gilgamesh]

See here is the real problem...Kain, if u read the Koran and interpret it word to word you will see that the horrible acts you mentioned done by muslims today are the result of "true religion". Same thing goes for the bible and christians. When christians in europe where burning jews and non-believers they were doing what the bible says. Leviticus,Deuteronomy and Exodus from the bible contain the most horrible crimes committed in history,and guess what,christians if they wanna stick to their religion as it is and unaltered that is what they should do. The teachings of the bible and koran are destructive if applied exactly as they are mentioned in these two books(they are still applied in some cases). If you wanna go further into details,I can get passages from the koran or the bible to show u what "real religious" ppl must do to please god. They should burn heretics and their children,kill adulterers,kill idolaters with their children and burn their villages,burn homosexuals and take their property,force women into marriage(in case of war) and many many other acts that are sure barbaric. These weren't made up by deviation from religion,these are the words of the bible and koran that ppl "should" stick to.

[Kain]

Who are you to interpret the Koran as you please? There are people responsible for doing just that. Even i cannot interpret it as i please. If i did then i would be misled.
The Koran is a very delicate book. The context of the aya must be taken into consideration as well as its meaning. Explaning it is no easy task. You want explanations. Go ask a Sheikh. If you want to argue with me about the Koran i suggest a shiite sheikh as interpretations differ among sunnites and shiites.

Get me the ayas and if i don't know about the meaning or context then i can simply ask and get back to you on that. Convince me and i'll become an atheist....May the best man win lol

[Gilgamesh]

I hate to upset you Kain but I am not the regular arrogant atheist who asserts something without asking around. Koran is in arabic and not that hard to understand but anyway I have asked a lot and was in an Islamic school in Lebanon for seven straight years. Here is the first real question I asked a sheikh almost 8 years ago.It was not answered to my satisfaction by four sheikhs,go around and ask it,maybe you will have better luck .

Q: God says in a Holy Hadeeth,"I was an unknown treasure so I created man to be realized". Why does a perfect God needs to be realized? Doesn't the very existence of need or desire contradict the idea of perfection? Is it that if humans didn't exist then God will cease to be a "god" since He is the only thing that exists (by the same logic that if there was no light there would be no darkness)?


The four sheikhs didn't deny the existence of this hadith and gave unsatisfactory answers( BTW they were shee3a )