Is Religion Useful?

[FriendOfZeus]

Kain do u believe that the teachings of the Quoran or the Hadith should be applied fully in our current societies dispite the huge changes that have occured around the world in the passing century? Dont u think that if the teachings would be applied to a 99% extent wouldnt that embottle us in?

[Kain]

Embottle us in what? i dind't really get that part.

[FriendOfZeus]

Kain ur saying that the current muslims have deviated from the holy teachings and have gone astray. I understand that u want reform, to follow the teachings of the Quoran and the Hadith like the old days. But what im saying is that if we were to go back to the old mentalities and act the way our forefathers used to act, then we would have to imprison our societies in the muslim mentality and way of life, the shariaa. Wouldnt that separate our societies and countries from the universal village that has come to exist in the passing of the 3rd millenia.

[Kain]

Nice question but i meant more in my statement than i let on, i just didn't want to say more because it would get very controversial.
And no one said anything about old mentalities, Islam is a religion for all centuries, since the beginning of the world to its end. If applied in a right manner you could get a utopia. But applied right does not mean killing everyone who opposes it. An open mind is a must in islam, and extermist minds will only lead to salafist like thinking.

The question is: How should islam be? What is true islam? How has "islam" deviated, what do we mean by that and what could reform bring?

Long subject....and i mean very long...As well as controversial

I can't give you a straight answer because it needs time to explain and that's impossible over the internet. But no, applying true islam would not embottle us at all.



'

[FriendOfZeus]

How should islam be?
Islamic behavior should a mirror to the teachings of the Quoran and to the Hadith.

How has "islam" deviated, what do we mean by that and what could reform bring?

All right i will have to answer u back today because the internet cafe needs to close---bullocks---- nice subject though, keen on continuing this constructive argument.

Peace

[Kain]

As much as i would love to continue this subject, but:

1- Our posts will become off topic
2- Certain members will feel insulted
3- It's controversial.

If we were talking face to face it would be different, but it would take a long time over the internet.

[Gilgamesh]

Again and again....

FriendofZeus and Kain....what does reform mean when it is in religious context?

In religious context,Reform means to go back to the scripture(in this case Koran) and apply it literally thus reforming religion by staying away from all actions and rituals that have been formed through the years and are not based on the koraan.

Let me state some verses from the Koran and Kain try to explain how these can be applied today and undoubtedly they should if any reform is to be sought :

Some verses on Tolerance:

"Slay them wherever you find them.....Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme."(2 :190-193)

"Believers,do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but you ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal"(3:118)

Let me explain a bit. Idolatry means worshiping idols. Hindus,Buddhists,and every person who doesn't follow Islam,Christianity, or Judaism fits under this category. No wonder Muslims in Pakistan did what they did to Hindus (Hinduism is a destructive religion as well and Hindus were equally evil). If Pakistan was to apply sharee3a,they should never have any truce or peace with India but fight them till "God's religion reigns supreme."

I find the second one more horrible though, it means our fellow Muslims here in the US for example,if they wanna apply sharee3a, should never be friends with anyone but other Muslims. Great message for tolerance and great way for establishing a diverse society. I can go on forever but I know that if you choose to overlook the fact that religion belongs to the barbaric era of human history,nothing can convince you. If you choose to believe that we were made from mud and never evolved, I think it is hard for me to convince you otherwise.

If humans want to establish any glorious future or a good world to live in, God,Allah,and Jehovah must follow Zeus, Apollo,and Poseidon to the great cemetery we call Mythology.

[Kain]

For the last time Stop explaning stuff the way you see fit!!! Especially Holy scripture!!
I told you ayas should be taken into context!! Give me the context that aya descended onto the prophet and then you'll get your answer.
Shari3a is applied in iran, are shi3a slaying christians and sunna or whoever??
Don't get smart.

And concerning the second one, you're not of "my people" as you sir are not a believer, and i have not seen you spare any pains to corrupt me with your agnostic ideas. ( Supposing that's what the ayas mean )
And then again you should study the islamic meaning of friendship, ask a sheikh what that aya means and how friendship can fit into the context.
Befriending doesn' mean not having a relationship with someone. Maybe Befriending here means close friends, almost brother-like. Ask a sheikh for the meaning before you talk about things you have no knowledge of.

And as i told EAGLE_I in the Does God Exist? thread, i would rather you getting the ayas in arabic as the coran descended. English can have different meanings when using some words. Or not the exact meaning you're looking for.

[Kain]

I just saw the ayas, and the meaning from arabic to english DOES in fact change, and i would appreciate it if you would give the whole aya so that everyone would see what it's really talking about without you deviating the words or the context from its true meaning.

[Gilgamesh]

You know ...this happens again...The fact is that the ambiguous language was meant to be this misleading...It is easy to explain everything the way u see fit with what u want...Why keep stretching religion to try to include the development humans have made since the scriptures showed up?Developments that were impossible if we were to trust the ignorance of the scripture and the arrogance of religious people who think they can assert what they want with no evidence and even enforce ppl to believe it.

Iran?where jews have to pay extra taxes just because their beliefs are different? Where millions are illiterate and suffer of poverty because all the money is spent on the "civil" and "peaceful" nuclear research? Where women have to wear veils or head scarves even if they don't like it? Where a non-believer(like me) can't be a witness in court? IS that the best model you suggest Islam takes? Holy wars are coming,don't rush yourself.Fanatics in Iran who think they should liberate the "holy" land and fanatics in Israel who think Jehovah promised them the same "Holy" land will leave no chance for peace. And yes Iran is killing sunnis,indirectly. It is arming shiite militias in Iraq weather you would like to admit it or not. This is the same Iran that declared that Salman Rushdie should be killed because he criticized Islam. Wake up dude and just be fair,religion is destructive.