Prophet Mohammad's caricatures

[TAREK®]

look who is talking the Isrealien the people that doesnt know God jeyin 3am bye7ko tfeh

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by -t-o-n-y-

what's the big deal about it .....they're free to put in the press what they want to.....and u're free to be against or with but you shouldn't react in a agressive way neither with "mouzaharat" .....

Originally Posted by -t-o-n-y-

well i simply don't care they are free to put what they want .....enno chou ra7 t2assir?!

Originally Posted by J()e

try to be open minded a little bit guyz.
i dont care if it's jesus or mhammad or .... for god sakes we are living in the 21st century.!

Originally Posted by athegan

I salute him and especially salute the danish newspapers who published it in the same day very recently....religious nuts should understand the way others feel about them...and their "icons' and "prophets"....

Freedom of speech is above anyone's "feelings"....and if god is "omnipotent", why don't you sit aside and let him bring his wrath on the german minister himself ? Why be so excited to play the role of his advocate ?

Freedom of speach is not a liberty without boundaries.Like every other liberty.

Freedom ,Rights and liberties are not without limits.

Liberty stops where it causes harm.

And harm can be defined as "material" and "moral".And "moral" harm is very well established under theese circumstances,which makes the act of publishing such pictures,an offense,according to the law.

Besides,and even if we put aside this aspect of the law,it is well established by now that publishing theese pictures, fuels anger and hate and violence.

Which means that publishing them now,has become,according to the law,a deliberate incitement for hate and violence.

Which is a serious criminal act according to every European law.

And even if we put this criminal aspect aside,it is very well established by now,that publishing theese pictures causes civil unrest and constitutes a serious menace to the public order.

Which is also a serious criminal act according to every European law.

So according to the law,we have here one offense and two crimes.So If the European tribunals just do their homework,this matter can be solved peacefully.

But where there is no just law...violence and revenge rule.

PS:I wonder how would reactions be if it were a proeminent jewish religious figure that is depicted as a terrorist.I bet that we could add to the charges then,a douzen of offenses and another douzen of crimes.And on top of it...antisemitism.The paper would be closed of course.And needless to say that the king of Dannemark himself would have to go to the Israeli Knesset and present his deepest apologies.And compensations would be due of course.And Dannemark would have to sign some few "trade" treaties with Israel.And...and...and...

[Gilgamesh]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Freedom of speach is not a liberty without boundaries.Like every other liberty.

Freedom ,Rights and liberties are not without limits.

Says who may I ask?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Liberty stops where it causes harm.

What harm does a caricature of a dead man cause?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

And harm can be defined as "material" and "moral".And "moral" harm is very well established under theese circumstances,which makes the act of publishing such pictures,an offense,according to the law.

offensive yes...illegal no...rap offends me by saying it is music, it is not illegal though ....

but seriously, as I said before, since I am an atheist and Islam says I have no right to live, that offends me....It is not illegal though, I take them for what they say, be a man about it, and debate....not cry and smash cars out of fear that my ideas are incompotent and can't defend themselves...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Besides,and even if we put aside this aspect of the law,it is well established by now that publishing theese pictures, fuels anger and hate and violence.

Which means that publishing them now,has become,according to the law,a deliberate incitement for hate and violence.

Which is a serious criminal act according to every European law.

They were published again because the guy who was after the caricature was recently attacked in an attempt to kill him (he deserves it,right?)....thats why I saluted everyone who took a stance with the guy and reposted the funny drawing...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

And even if we put this criminal aspect aside,it is very well established by now,that publishing theese pictures causes civil unrest and constitutes a serious menace to the public order.

Which is also a serious criminal act according to every European law.

So according to the law,we have here one offense and two crimes.So If the European tribunals just do their homework,this matter can be solved peacefully.

But where there is no just law...violence and revenge rule.

Lets try an anology... Drug Dealers...every time we go after some big drug dealer, his "army" causes "civil unrest" and "consitute a serious menace to the public order" and endanger lots of people...does that mean we should not go after him/her?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

PS:I wonder how would reactions be if it were a proeminent jewish religious figure that is depicted as a terrorist.I bet that we could add to the charges then,a douzen of offenses and another douzen of crimes.And on top of it...antisemitism.The paper would be closed of course.And needless to say that the king of Dannemark himself would have to go to the Israeli Knesset and present his deepest apologies.And compensations would be due of course.And Dannemark would have to sign some few "trade" treaties with Israel.And...and...and...

Exaggerated but basically right...jews get "special treatment"...a blind person can see it, this doesn't add any point against my stance though...

Peace

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by athegan

Says who may I ask?

Says the law...Take it from an expert.

PS:You really think that Freedom,Rights and liberties are not without limits?!!...lol.

Originally Posted by athegan

What harm does a caricature of a dead man cause?

First of all,the prophet is not just "a dead man".You should learn to respect people's beliefs and sensitivities before promoting yourself as defender of freedoms or any moral values.

Anyway,

Forget Islam,forget the prophet...i'm not talking from this angle.It could be any other form of publication that provokes the same effects.

All and any publication enjoy the liberty of thoughts and expression,but until a certain limit.

You don't have the right to publish whatever you want,no matter the country you live in.

That's because at a certain limit,a publication could become offensive,causing harm and/or simply unlawfull.

This is not "my" opinion,but just what the law predicts.

Originally Posted by athegan

offensive yes...illegal no...rap offends me by saying it is music, it is not illegal though ....

Rap annoys you maybe...Or even bothers you....But does not offend anyone in any way.Unless each time there is a rap song..people get angry and get in the streets and feel that they are aggressed.So please,if you want to make some sense,try better analogies next time.

When i'm using the word "offensive" i mean it in the legal way...Ya3neh the way the law considers it offensive...not you...Mish Mazej El Ossa.

Originally Posted by athegan

but seriously, as I said before, since I am an atheist and Islam says I have no right to live, that offends me....

You being an atheist or a believer is irrelevant to the subject and doesn't add/substract any special credibility to your stances.

Anyway,

1-Islam doesn't say that.You have been mislead...De7ko 3leik Ya3neh.

2-Any religion,cult,sect,association,...that preaches violence and incites for murder,is strictly forbidden.

3-I don't know what vision you have of freedom and liberties,but it looks like Anarchy the way you depict it.

Originally Posted by athegan

It is not illegal though, I take them for what they say, be a man about it, and debate....not cry and smash cars out of fear that my ideas are incompotent and can't defend themselves...

Khayyeh what you think or not,...how you react or not...is irrelevant....unless there is an angry population behind you that feels deeply aggressed...then it would be a matter of debate.

Ba3ed Iznak Ya3neh...Bass Mish Enta El Me3yar.

The law specifies clearly what liberty is...and what its limits are.And there is enough jurisprudence to confirm it.

Originally Posted by athegan

They were published again because the guy who was after the caricature was recently attacked in an attempt to kill him (he deserves it,right?)....thats why I saluted everyone who took a stance with the guy and reposted the funny drawing...

You have the right to denounce any form or expression of violence.But why should you consider that the best way to do it,is by perpetuating the original provocation?You would be only adding fuel to the fire and i don't see how that can be beneficial.

And between us...You don't give me the impression that you saluted everyone who took a stance with the guy by reposting the drawing,neither because you care for him,nor because you care for freedom of expression,or whatever liberties.

Originally Posted by athegan

Lets try an anology... Drug Dealers...every time we go after some big drug dealer, his "army" causes "civil unrest" and "consitute a serious menace to the public order" and endanger lots of people...does that mean we should not go after him/her?

Obviously you don't seem to understand what i'm telling you.You call that "Analogy"?

Ok,let me answer it anyway at the same level of thoughts that you put it:

Since Your Drug dealers' army causes "civil unrest" and "consitute a serious menace to the public order" and endanger lots of people...This is exactly why it should be apprehended.

Happy now?

Originally Posted by athegan

Exaggerated but basically right...jews get "special treatment"...a blind person can see it, this doesn't add any point against my stance though...

Peace

Not exagerated at all.On the countrary...very softened.You obviously didn't live in Europe enough to know it.

And yes it adds points against your stances,because it shows how the so-called defenders of freedom of speach in this case are just hypocrits,and in fact,are using the theme of liberty to express their real feelings of racism and hate.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Says the law...Take it from an expert.

PS:You really think that Freedom,Rights and liberties are not without limits?!!...lol.

If the law actually says that when I express my opinion in a witty and funny manner and some idiots burn and destroy stuff and people as its result; i am to be punished not them....F the law and anyone who promotes it... If everytime someone who is "offended" will make such a fuss, no one will express his opinions( at least not the opinions that can bring on positive change to the human experience)

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

First of all,the prophet is not just "a dead man".You should learn to respect people's beliefs and sensitivities before promoting yourself as defender of freedoms or any moral values.

I don't want to learn to respect others people beliefs if they won't respect my right to believe their beliefs are stupid....don't expect me to see whatever you believe in with sympathy(especially if you preach around a lot)

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Anyway,

Forget Islam,forget the prophet...i'm not talking from this angle.It could be any other form of publication that provokes the same effects.

All and any publication enjoy the liberty of thoughts and expression,but until a certain limit.

You don't have the right to publish whatever you want,no matter the country you live in.

That's because at a certain limit,a publication could become offensive,causing harm and/or simply unlawfull.

This is not "my" opinion,but just what the law predicts.

I think I already answered this point in many different places...Who is to set the limit? why is the limit more stretched with christians (check out "Piss Christ" and "Choclate Christ") than it is with muslims and more so with jews? and if the laws say all that, I advocate changing them....

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Rap annoys you maybe...Or even bothers you....But does not offend anyone in any way.Unless each time there is a rap song..people get angry and get in the streets and feel that they are aggressed.So please,if you want to make some sense,try better analogies next time.

LOL ok abousandal....this was meant as a silly joke...but actually rap contains a lot of references to sex,drugs, gangster acts, shootings and racist remarks....I am sure someone is OFFENDED by it (actually there are groups in america who protested to remove the word "nigger" from rap songs, they didnt kill anyone or burn anything though )

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

When i'm using the word "offensive" i mean it in the legal way...Ya3neh the way the law considers it offensive...not you...Mish Mazej El Ossa.

Back with the law...since I am not sure what the law is and since u r an expert, please include the law and the document it comes from...but even if the law says that, I am against that law and would vote for changing it....Words should be said whenever we wanna say them (yes, including hate speech, racist speech and every kind of outlawed speech be it in the U.S or Europe)

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

You being an atheist or a believer is irrelevant to the subject and doesn't add/substract any special credibility to your stances.

Good, I hope it is the way with everyone...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Anyway,

1-Islam doesn't say that.You have been mislead...De7ko 3leik Ya3neh.

LOL...I am an ex-muslim and I know the belief I left behind and what it preaches....Atheists are to be killed according to islamic shari3a....the last one in saudi arabia to be beheaded, by the government, for this charge was in 1992....go read about islam, shaklon de7ko 3lek elak be "the religion of peace: thing....

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

2-Any religion,cult,sect,association,...that preaches violence and incites for murder,is strictly forbidden.

Let me alter this to make it a bit more like the facts....Any religion that exists today contains tons of hate speech, had been the cause of wars and blood and death and injustice for hundreds of years, preaches out-group hatred and intolerance and finally, have only survived by placing a shell around it called "respect our faith"...They are all doomed however as time passes...they all are declining and splitting into sects further and further everyday(I am glad to see all that...I hope that doesn't offend you )

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

3-I don't know what vision you have of freedom and liberties,but it looks like Anarchy the way you depict it.

When it comes to freedom of speech, the one Thomas Jefferson invisioned....and yes I am a libertarian socialist and see the smallest government possible with the least rules set to limit our freedom as the ideal situation...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Khayyeh what you think or not,...how you react or not...is irrelevant....unless there is an angry population behind you that feels deeply aggressed...then it would be a matter of debate.

Oh so if an idea is offensive, the matter of offense range with numbers....It is the ok to offend scientologists( enno ma ktar) and maybe even buddhists( not only ma ktar, they are also peacefull people) but not muslims....because one muslim is enough (if "offended") to do something to make everyone regret expressing his opinion....LOL...since when did we become sissies like this...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Ba3ed Iznak Ya3neh...Bass Mish Enta El Me3yar.

The law specifies clearly what liberty is...and what its limits are.And there is enough jurisprudence to confirm it.

repeated and repeated...zahha2tne khayye...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

You have the right to denounce any form or expression of violence.But why should you consider that the best way to do it,is by perpetuating the original provocation?You would be only adding fuel to the fire and i don't see how that can be beneficial.

I see it as more than beneficial...look at the history of christians and you will understand...if more and more "offences" like the caricature and the teddy bear in sudan happen, eventuallyu muslims will tend to become tolerant...Eventually they will be like christians (most of them) seeing critics and debating them instead of hating them, and understanding that their faith doesn't mean anything to other people( or means something negative, it gets interesting with political islam)

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

And between us...You don't give me the impression that you saluted everyone who took a stance with the guy by reposting the drawing,neither because you care for him,nor because you care for freedom of expression,or whatever liberties.

That and many other reasons...what reason do u suggest is my motive ?

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Obviously you don't seem to understand what i'm telling you.You call that "Analogy"?

Ok,let me answer it anyway at the same level of thoughts that you put it:

Since Your Drug dealers' army causes "civil unrest" and "consitute a serious menace to the public order" and endanger lots of people...This is exactly why it should be apprehended.

Happy now?

Didnt you contradict urself...I mean if they were caught and put in prisons, the after effect will be so bad that we might regret doing it...does that make the action wrong? If u want to take a consequentialist philosophy, I am ready to answer from that prespective...

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Not exagerated at all.On the countrary...very softened.You obviously didn't live in Europe enough to know it.

And yes it adds points against your stances,because it shows how the so-called defenders of freedom of speach in this case are just hypocrits,and in fact,are using the theme of liberty to express their real feelings of racism and hate.

I agree here with you...everyone should be able to doubt the holocaust, be a fan of hitler or say jews are stupid arrogant pricks who have formed a country that acts like a psychopath....Sheelna men be2e l 3alam....this is how I see things right...books by hitler shouldn't be outlawed in germany and it shouldn't be a charge to doubt the holocaust...and since these are LAWS, I think you can go back to the top of the post and agree that laws sometimes should be changed (actually most of the time)

Peace

[Abou Sandal]

Athegan,

I suggest we leave it here since you are not really willing to read what i'm writing,but in fact,you rather seem interested in just picking and choosing and distorting,even putting words in my mouth i didn't say, in order to get to your pre-established conclusion that is nothing but a wish.

You are free to believe whatever you want,but at least discuss your beliefs and others in a fair manner.

If you want to joke and be sarcastic and turn to derision a serious debate like this one,...you win.

Maybe you would me more comfortable to discuss issues with people whome have the same opinion of yours.

Cheers.

[abousoun]

Originally Posted by athegan

I don't want to learn to respect others people beliefs if they won't respect my right to believe their beliefs are stupid....

Originally Posted by athegan

LOL...I am an ex-muslim and I know the belief I left behind and what it preaches....Atheists are to be killed according to islamic shari3a....the last one in saudi arabia to be beheaded, by the government, for this charge was in 1992....go read about islam, shaklon de7ko 3lek elak be "the religion of peace: thing....

That Danish journalist draw a picture of the prophet with a bomb on his head ... eno straight forward no need for too much interpretation ... 5tassar all muslims by the picture of the prophet to show people that muslims are bunch of terrorists ... ktir mni7

Now to the picture you are desperately trying to show :
atheist : Hello I'm an atheist
Muslim : Hello ... You're dead
(and the poor atheist got a bullet in his head )

Alright then, now i can understand why you are supporting that kind of "freedom" ...

But the thing is (won't say de7ko 3leik aw la2) you didn't understand quite well what Islam is about ... That's why you turned out to be an Ex-muslim or atheist (btw use atheist it's better)
Since in Islam God is the one who punishes man for what he beleives in or not ...
You are free to choose any religion you like or not to choose any ...

فمن شاء فليؤمن ومن شاء فليكفر

and you are not to be punished by man if you are an atheist ...

When to be punished by man (I think that is what's disturbing you)?
It's when you publically offend that religion (kind of similar to the first quote) ... and here i'm not talking about KSA perse ... coz every country has its law and constitution (based on religion or not) and you have to obey that rules in case you are a resident there ...
back in the past in Russia or Soviet Union people were to be killed if they practiced their religion, any religion ... (same concept bass ma3kouss)
Whom to blame ?

Thank You ...

[Gilgamesh]

Originally Posted by abousoun

That Danish journalist draw a picture of the prophet with a bomb on his head ... eno straight forward no need for too much interpretation ... 5tassar all muslims by the picture of the prophet to show people that muslims are bunch of terrorists ... ktir mni7

yeah i believe that what his intention....

Originally Posted by abousoun

Now to the picture you are desperately trying to show :
atheist : Hello I'm an atheist
Muslim : Hello ... You're dead
(and the poor atheist got a bullet in his head )

Alright then, now i can understand why you are supporting that kind of "freedom" ...

But the thing is (won't say de7ko 3leik aw la2) you didn't understand quite well what Islam is about ... That's why you turned out to be an Ex-muslim or atheist (btw use atheist it's better)
Since in Islam God is the one who punishes man for what he beleives in or not ...
You are free to choose any religion you like or not to choose any ...

فمن شاء فليؤمن ومن شاء فليكفر

and you are not to be punished by man if you are an atheist ...

LOL...u need what i only need, an arabic keyboard....You have never seen a quote that says "l mortad 3an l islam" and what is his punishment? Al mortad yoktal...I will be sure to get you a real quote from any muslim book ( I think there is a quote by Imam Ali too ,not sure though)...

And I am not that stupid to take the argument like that,....as for my knowledge of Islam, I will present my credentials if we ever get to talk in a less public way...You will not be disappointed and I am really sorry because my sentences (some of them) came too extreme ( I do believe it is my right to be extreme btw, bas it is not how I usually am and not my approach)

Back to KSA and I forgot afghanistan...The rule to kill someone who leaves Islam ( in the case of afghanistan to christianity) is a well justified rule in islam...ironically saudi arabia imprisons a woman who leaves islam instead of killing her untill she repents (that actually happened)...

Originally Posted by abousoun

When to be punished by man (I think that is what's disturbing you)?
It's when you publically offend that religion (kind of similar to the first quote) ... and here i'm not talking about KSA perse ... coz every country has its law and constitution (based on religion or not) and you have to obey that rules in case you are a resident there ...

Apparently when it comes to freedom of speech, if abou sandal's info is true, I am more for it than europeans...Yeah country laws, we are here concerned with what is right and how we can change what isn't...I believe that all kinds of speech should be exchanged, a free market of ideas, ones live and develop and others die out under criticism and ridicule...that is how it should be....

Originally Posted by abousoun

back in the past in Russia or Soviet Union people were to be killed if they practiced their religion, any religion ... (same concept bass ma3kouss)
Whom to blame ?

Thank You ...

Wayno marx92...that is what i have been telling communists in lebanon for years....Ofcourse the soviet union is to blame for destroying churches and robbing ppl forcebly from their beliefs...It is one thing to debate that religion is harmful and another thing to DECIDE by yourself that it is and take action upon that....

Freedom of religion is on the list of freedoms that should always exist....only when religion interferes in or harms lives of ppl who dont believe in it, limitations should be set( not like the ones in the soviet union though)...

To abou sandal and to you abousoun...answer the following question....

Is it the same if a speech results in violence commited by the people preached to(this is speech inciting violence) and a speech that results in violence from the other group being criticized( this is what we r debating here)?

Peace

[abousoun]

Originally Posted by athegan

LOL...u need what i only need, an arabic keyboard....

http://www.dorar.net/keyboard.htm

Originally Posted by athegan

You have never seen a quote that says "l mortad 3an l islam" and what is his punishment? Al mortad yoktal...I will be sure to get you a real quote from any muslim book ( I think there is a quote by Imam Ali too ,not sure though)...

I think You already know that most of my quotes comes from the Quran ... and in Quran there is no evidence about you should kill a "Mortadd" ... btw mortad is different from atheist (what we were discussing before) ... anyway here is some clues:

"‏ومن يرتد منكم عن دينه فيمت وهو كافر فأولئك حبطت أعمالهم في الدنيا والآخرة وأولئك أصحاب النار هم فيها خالدون "
‏"يا أيها الذين آمنوا من يرتد منكم عن دينه فسوف يأتي الله بقوم يحبهم ويحبونه أذلة علي المؤمنين أعزة علي الكافرين يجاهدون في سبيل الله ولا يخافون لومة لائم ذلك فضل الله يؤتيه من يشاء والله واسع عليم"

As shown the penalty of Mortad is for God to determine (the thing that i support)
what you are talking about is what's written in el bukhari (not a saying by Imam Ali but by the prophet) : "ومن بدل دينه فاقتلوه"
although this saying doesn't hold much strength (حديث آحاد)... but it has a wide interpretation (between may and must) ... anyway the meaning of this saying and what's most agreed upon is the one who changed his religion and fight against that religion ...
That's why in KSA they don't kill the woman but they emprison her (not ironically as you mentioned) ... since the woman doesn't fight, the man is the one who fights and is the one to be killed if he changes his religion and fight against it ...
and since it's "may" more than "must" ... during the Era of Omar ebn el khattab the penalty of mortad was to be imprisoned ... so it comes to the conclusion that it depends on the constitution of each country ...

Originally Posted by athegan

Is it the same if a speech results in violence commited by the people preached to(this is speech inciting violence) and a speech that results in violence from the other group being criticized( this is what we r debating here)?

Not in all circumstances ... coz this depends on the nature of the speech and ways of interpretation ... You can get the same result for 2 different hypothesis ... and a reaction can be justified to certain action

Thank You ...

[Gilgamesh]

Alright...The book is called "Wasa2el l Shi3a"....

And this is the quote....

3an el sadek wa 3an el 3omrky ben ali....3an 3ali bn ja3far...3an akhih abi el 7asann kal sa2altoho 3an moslem tanassar,kal : yoktal wala yostatab....kolto fa nasrani aslam thomma rtad..kal : yostatab fa 2en raje3...wa illa kotil

I will try to find the book here and buy it...i can then include the page...I am sure there is another quote referenced to one of the 12 imams (most probably Ali)...I just can't remember where i read it and its degree of strength....

Peace