The Fatawe Thread

[Gilgamesh]

Since I always find myself and some of my friends discussing all kinds of "fatewas", I thought it would be a really good idea to start a thread for people with knowledge in this area of religious studies to answer those who have question is this domain.

This thread can also serve as a tool for those posting in it to discuss these fatawas especially those that conflict between a Shiite Religious Authority and another.

The First topic that I would like to start with is the subject of Hijab. Let members discuss the guidelines and the allowed and prohibited things for a girl with hijab.
Please with every piece info be ready for a possible question about your source.

P.S. Making up any kind of wrong information or including information that you aren't sure of how precise it is without specifying so will be a religious wrong deed. Please be careful what you mention.

[abousoun]

Notes:
1 - Thank You deAtheganized for this interesting idea
2 - This is a very serious thread and can be very helpful for many . Please try to be serious and avoid joking in this thread.
3 - I know many may have certain questions or doubts or different concepts concerning many religious issues .. feel free to discuss them

Thank You ...

[mr_j]

Jesus christ said:" من نظر الى امراة واشتهاها فقد زنى بها في قلبه"
now in christianity the hijab use to be adopted in churches in islam the prophet (as my limited knowledge told me) was more specific on the topic by saying men and women should not look at each others in a non pure way and mentionned that women should wear a veil.

is the veil a way to prevent other men from thinking wrong or does the veil serve the one that is wearing it ?

because with respects to both religions(christianity and islam) we are humans, we have instincts, we have hormones running through our veins, you cannot expect and this will never come to be, that humans don't get any dirty thoughts
so I really don't feel the veil is effective
even if you place all women inside steel tanks and have them walking around in that way you will not get anywhere, impure thoughts come from within us and not from what others dress

[abousoun]

Originally Posted by mr_j

is the veil a way to prevent other men from thinking wrong or does the veil serve the one that is wearing it ?

Actually it serves both ... i'll quote Sayyid Mohamad Hussein Fadlallah (SMHF) opinion concerning this question :

" يهيئ الحجاب الجو النفسي لمقاومة تأثير الأجواء الداعية إلى الانحراف في الخارج، وإيجاد مناعة داخلية في الرجل والمرأة ضد تلك الأجواء. فهو ـ أي الحجاب ـ يوحي للمرأة بأن عليها تقديم نفسها كإنسان، ويساعدها على تحقيق ذلك، بعزله مفاتنها الأنثوية عن الأنظار، ويوحي للرجل، في المقابل، بأن عليه أن لا ينظر إلى المرأة إلا كإنسان، بحجبه جسدها عن نظره. وهكذا فإن الحجاب يشكل وسيلة لسد المنافذ التي تهيئ جو الانحراف بنسبة عالية."

Originally Posted by mr_j

because with respects to both religions(christianity and islam) we are humans, we have instincts, we have hormones running through our veins, you cannot expect and this will never come to be, that humans don't get any dirty thoughts

as you said we have hormones ... but these hormones need a stimulus ... and sight is one of many stimuli, but it's not the only one ...
that's why you've read in the previous quote that veil is a "way" ... it's not the only way

Originally Posted by mr_j

so I really don't feel the veil is effective
even if you place all women inside steel tanks and have them walking around in that way you will not get anywhere, impure thoughts come from within us and not from what others dress

SMHF:
لذلك قد يحتاج الرجل أيضاً إلى حالة من (الحجاب الذهني) التي تفصله عن أفكار الانحراف، كما تحتاج المرأة إلى ذلك
veil isn't just a physical material ... veil include both moral and physical aspects ...
Nowadays we have what's called "modern veil" which i think is more dangerous than not wearing veil at all

Thank You ...

[MORPHEUSP]

I am with the using of hijab only in religious places such as mosqs and churches, otherwise no need for it.

simple example to support my point: my dad was telling me a story about something he saw o nthe plane when he was coming back from saudi arabia, there was 2 fullly veiled woman in black when they left the saudi airspace then went and changed their closes and my dad told m,e that they were dressing in a very "****ty way" so the question that arises what differ those from any other prostitue wether it was christian or muslim or ... the point is that we can't stick to materialism and say we are not sinners, we will be only proving this fact to ourselves ( 3am ne2na3 7alna bass), religion is not about what you wear and what you do it;s a way of living by your virtues and deeds, i personaly think that god don;t want people to be sinners and he doesn't expect them to be saints also. so the fatwa about the hijab i think it best work in the religeous places just as a form of respect to the house of god, but outside the sacred places there is no need for it

thank you

[mr_j]

I also don't see why impure thoughts are bad, you are not hurting anyone. religion goes beyong restricting freedome of speech and expression to restricting even freedom of thought.
and if you want to say thoughts lead to actions, it really is not true nor it is proven, and even if it was the action should be banned and not the thought
if excess sugar kills you that doesn't mean you should starve yourself to death to avoid diabetes

[abousoun]

Originally Posted by MORPHEUSP

simple example to support my point: my dad was telling me a story about something he saw on the plane when he was coming back from saudi arabia, there was 2 fullly veiled woman in black when they left the saudi airspace then went and changed their closes and my dad told me that they were dressing in a very "****ty way" so the question that arises what differ those from any other prostitue wether it was christian or muslim or

It's kind of irrelevant to the topic, since you can take exceptions and form a rule from them ...
you know this reminded me of an incident that happened to my friend in an arabic country ... he met this girl (she wears veil of course) and after a couple of times dating, he started to sleep with her ... one day they were in the middle of ... you know, and then she heard "el 2addein ... allahhhh akbar " so she threw him off the bed and covered herself with the bed sheet and after el 2addein was finished, they resumed their action (he was like what the f**k just happened here )
eno wearing veil or not doesn't change the fact what those girls are, it's just becoming a disguise for them in the community and this is not the case of what we are trying to prove or clear here

Originally Posted by MORPHEUSP

the point is that we can't stick to materialism and say we are not sinners, we will be only proving this fact to ourselves ( 3am ne2na3 7alna bass)

I agree that in these previous examples (or exceptions) 3am yeda7ako 3ala 7alon bass with this act ...
that's why in my previous post i said veil have both aspects moral and physical
SMHF :
من هنا، فإن ترك الحجاب المادي يهدد الحجاب المعنوي، باعتبار أنه يهيئ الأجواء لاهتزاز الحجاب المعنوي ولضعفه، وبالتالي لانحرافه وسقوطه، والعكس صحيح.

Originally Posted by MORPHEUSP

religion is not about what you wear and what you do it;s a way of living by your virtues and deeds, i personaly think that god don;t want people to be sinners and he doesn't expect them to be saints also. so the fatwa about the hijab i think it best work in the religeous places just as a form of respect to the house of god, but outside the sacred places there is no need for it

I see some contradiction here, previously you said that we can't stick to materialism in the community (minkoun 3am ne2na3 7alna fih bass), but it's okey to wear veil in sacred places as a form of respect to God ... isn't this like you are moquing god somehow ??!!!! Nuns then should remove their veil outside church ... If you are sure that's not disrespectful outside sacred places, then it shouldn't be disrespectful inside these place ... after all God is everywhere :P

Thank You ...

[Kain]

Originally Posted by mr_j

I also don't see why impure thoughts are bad, you are not hurting anyone.

When sex is on your mind, you can kiss good, sound judgement goodbye.

Originally Posted by mr_j

religion goes beyong restricting freedom of speech and expression to restricting even freedom of thought.

It isn't restricting...it's controlling yourself and learning to control yourself to bring out most of your potential as a human being.
Your most important asset is your mind and that's what you should work on showing in society, not what's in ur pants.
One day you will understand what an "unrestricted" society is like, the social effects are of such a big scale that you will feel like you are living in a whole different world.

Originally Posted by mr_j

and if you want to say thoughts lead to actions, it really is not true nor it is proven,

Oh so we don't think before we act???
Well i did not know that*sarcarsm*...
and don't start with free will...if you wanna debate that go reopen that thread you already started.
Impure Thoughts DO lead to actions by pressuring the person to pursue actions based on those impious thoughts. He might stop himself, only for a little while, but then everyone breaks under the pressure of constant unwavering thoughts.
If you act without thinking then it's pure instinct.
Pure thoughts keep you away from that kind of action.

Originally Posted by mr_j

and even if it was the action should be banned and not the thought

By emphasizing the role of the mind you are creating a society where such actions do not, or rarely occur.
Don't bring Saudi Arabia into the subject holik 2ossa tenye

Originally Posted by mr_j

if excess sugar kills you that doesn't mean you should starve yourself to death to avoid diabetes

No it means you will eat within limits and RULES that will ensure you don't kill yourself.

[mr_j]

No it means you will eat within limits and RULES that will ensure you don't kill yourself.

and by limits you mean try to NEVER get a dirty thought

No it means you will eat within limits and RULES that will ensure you don't kill yourself.

I was not, and I understand hol ossa gher but aslan I don't need to. religion is still following the same pattern. in saudis arabia the regime might be more effective in forcing discipline on non believers bas religion has the same powerful effect on believers
you are teling people that if you have inpure thoughts you won't enter heaven and you risk entering into hell
isn't that forcing the rule? people who believe in the afterlife see that as a threat, to them this is the same as or maybe even worse that human practices(in other words threatning to imprison or kill you) because you are threatning your followers with eternity

When sex is on your mind, you can kiss good, sound judgement goodbye.

I really doubt that. off topic,but a serious off topic point. I always liked to dream about murdering my chemistry teacher, in my fantasies it would always be setting a bomb in her car or shooting her from a sniper from the top levels of a dorm building(yes I hated her so much I actualy had everything figured out)I also dreamt about spiking her drink with progesterone when she was pregnant maybe she'd lose the baby (yes I can be very sick in my mind) while this is not an example of impure sexual thought, it is an example of an evil demonic thought anyway when I meet her anywhere I always smile and say hello, it has never affected the way I behaved in her presence, I would have never tried to take advantage of any incident to actualy cause her to die

it's just thoughts, dreams, wishes. they exist just to make me feel better at a certain point

why are things similiar to this prohibited in religion, I never done anything wrong

[Kain]

Originally Posted by mr_j

and by limits you mean try to NEVER get a dirty thought

Kell shi 7elo bi wa2to

Originally Posted by mr_j

I was not, and I understand hol ossa gher but aslan I don't need to. religion is still following the same pattern. in saudis arabia the regime might be more effective in forcing discipline on non believers bas religion has the same powerful effect on believers

Then you have no idea my friend

Originally Posted by mr_j

you are telling people that if you have impure thoughts you won't enter heaven and you risk entering into hell

Now you're simply falsifying what i said.
We're saying that you should restrain those impure thoughts that may lead to bad action.
In order to control your actions you should control your thoughts.
There is a difference between thinking of something and doing it.
Which is why you can see the difference between a sex crazed man and a man that had a simple impure thought pass through his mind.
The first has the tendency to take corrupt actions.

Originally Posted by mr_j

isn't that forcing the rule? people who believe in the afterlife see that as a threat, to them this is the same as or maybe even worse that human practices(in other words threatening to imprison or kill you) because you are threatening your followers with eternity

We've already had the discussion of eternity several times and you've agreed to some of what i already said and yet you continue to repeat the same things.
Back to the subject: How is it forcing the rule by telling people to do good for their own good??
Ya3ne you tell someone not to kill and he kills..he gets imprisoned and gets the death penalty.
You're accusing the government of forcing that person into what it wants when it's actually doing what's best for others and society as a whole.
Your liberty rests at the privacy and the liberties of others..those are lines you may not cross.

Originally Posted by mr_j

I really doubt that.

Then you have no sexual instinct whatsoever.
And even supposing that you are the only man in the world who doesn't have a sexual instinct then you qualify as an exception and the rule does not include you.
So we cannot base a rule on you.

Originally Posted by mr_j

off topic,but a serious off topic point. I always liked to dream about murdering my chemistry teacher, in my fantasies it would always be setting a bomb in her car or shooting her from a sniper from the top levels of a dorm building(yes I hated her so much I actualy had everything figured out)I also dreamt about spiking her drink with progesterone when she was pregnant maybe she'd lose the baby (yes I can be very sick in my mind) while this is not an example of impure sexual thought, it is an example of an evil demonic thought anyway when I meet her anywhere I always smile and say hello, it has never affected the way I behaved in her presence, I would have never tried to take advantage of any incident to actualy cause her to die

it's just thoughts, dreams, wishes. they exist just to make me feel better at a certain point

There is a BIG difference between sexual thoughts which are carried as an instinct and what you're thinking.
I mean yes that is a funny thought but not a SERIOUS one.
Sexual thoughts are on the other hand serious...unless you fantasize about clowns...Then you're just sick...

Originally Posted by mr_j

why are things similiar to this prohibited in religion, I never done anything wrong

You're basically saying: Bananas and Broccoli are both edible...when one's a fruit and the other's a vegetable...and i doubt that they are ever served on the same plate together.