The Fatawe Thread

[mr_j]

You're accusing the government of forcing that person into what it wants when it's actually doing what's best for others and society as a whole

no I am questioning that particular rule in religion
for example, it is beyong question that killing is bad for society
however I do question wether or not impure thoughts are bad for society, and I certainly do question wether or not so much restriction is required

There is a BIG difference between sexual thoughts which are carried as an instinct and what you're thinking.
I mean yes that is a funny thought but not a SERIOUS one.

aggressivness and selfshness is part of our insticts isn't it?how often do you see someone working hard to win the lottery because he wants to give it all away to the children's hospital without mentioning his name? I still think my example is relevant

You're basically saying: Bananas and Broccoli are both edible...when one's a fruit and the other's a vegetable...and i doubt that they are ever served on the same plate together.

please explain

edit: a sex crazed man as you mentionned maybe more of a man with an irregualr hormonal or neuronal firing than simply an individual with no practiced mental restrictions

[Kain]

Originally Posted by mr_j

no I am questioning that particular rule in religion

You made a comparison using humans and gave the example of prison. I responded accordingly.

Originally Posted by mr_j

for example, it is beyond question that killing is bad for society

I used killing as an example of what is bad for society...and i explained...your liberty stops at the privacy and liberty of others

Originally Posted by mr_j

however I do question wether or not impure thoughts are bad for society,

Impure/Bad actions are bad for society...they are necessarily caused by impure/bad thoughts...the aim is to emphasize the role of your mind and not your genitals.
----> Learn to control yourself kermelak w kermel ghayrak

Originally Posted by mr_j

and I certainly do question wether or not so much restriction is required

SO much?? l3ama ktir matloob mennak la2an??

Originally Posted by mr_j

aggressivness and selfshness is part of our insticts isn't it?how often do you see someone working hard to win the lottery because he wants to give it all away to the children's hospital without mentioning his name? I still think my example is relevant

Working hard and winning the lottery can't be put together in the same category.
I already told you kell shi 7elo bi wa2to.
Is it selfish to want the best for your family??
Even if you do win the lottery...another subject that comes up is zakat...and khomos....which eventually help the poor...ma tetfalsaf
And yes we already established in our conversations after which you also have repeated the same stand about selfishness.
This is off topic but i will only answer to it this one time and will not answer back in the next post...:
1- If you do it just to get your name mentioned it is "riya2"...you know what that is mr_j.
2- why did you mention aggressiveness since that is also a must that should be controlled??? and i think we BOTH agree on that.
3- If you talk about how people do good deeds and expect people to respect them it would not be selfishness...that would be called gratitude...and that's a whole other subject.

Originally Posted by mr_j

please explain

The only thing toz and mar7aba have in common is that they are both words.
Bas enta jebet toz w 2elet hayda mar7aba.

Originally Posted by mr_j

edit: a sex crazed man as you mentionned maybe more of a man with an irregular hormonal or neuronal firing than simply an individual with no practiced mental restrictions

Then he can control it in more than one way...and yet this is another exception..i'm talking about the guy who's like any other one of us but just loves anything related to sex and does not attempt to restrict himself.

[mr_j]

SO much?? l3ama ktir matloob mennak la2an??

women have to wear veils all their lives, from what age? 13, 14 ta ma n2oul 8 w 9. maybe you find that ordinary, I really feel that this plays a big role in increasing gender inequality and to remind people that men and women are different and they have different rights and obligations. it would not be too much to ask if it were only to respect your opposite sex contacts, but you are limiting touch(shaking hands even ta ma n2oul friendly hugging), visibility, implimenting a specific way of dressing and all that why? to prevent bad thoughts, while bad thoughts are not harmful but the slight risk of what may arouse from them would have been. you say this is not exageration?

Then he can control it in more than one way...and yet this is another exception..i'm talking about the guy who's like any other one of us but just loves anything related to sex and does not attempt to restrict himself.

the second he steps out of line and does something bad jail him
bas don't judge him for what is in his head

[General Lebnen]

I know a bit about " El Jawaz L Mot3a" , can you tell me more about it ! also the pros & the cons about it iza kelo 7alel w hek etc...

[Kain]

Originally Posted by mr_j

women have to wear veils all their lives, from what age? 13, 14 ta ma n2oul 8 w 9. maybe you find that ordinary, I really feel that this plays a big role in increasing gender inequality and to remind people that men and women are different and they have different rights and obligations.

Well ofcourse women are different ya3ne!!! They're women and we're men..
I mean we're not just 2 genders just because we have different genitals!
Men are also expected to dress in a certain manner...not just women
But not when it comes to rights...if anything they are respected more than men!!!
I'm not talking about society in general..i'm talking about an Islamic society...
If you "feel" that it increases gender inequality then that's your business.
Because you simply:
- Don't have all the facts straight to judge.
- Hypothesize based on values that are either the exact opposite or different from the matter at hand.

Originally Posted by mr_j

it would not be too much to ask if it were only to respect your opposite sex contacts, but you are limiting touch(shaking hands even ta ma n2oul friendly hugging),

You can show respect in many different ways.
Chinese show respect by bowing to the person they are addressing.

Originally Posted by mr_j

visibility,

Fi dabab ya3ne????

Originally Posted by mr_j

implementing a specific way of dressing and all that why? to prevent bad thoughts, while bad thoughts are not harmful but the slight risk of what may arouse from them would have been.

It is in no way a "slight" risk.
Societies have proved that so far

Originally Posted by mr_j

you say this is not exageration?

I believe you're the one who's exagerating my friend

[Kain]

Originally Posted by General Lebnen

I know a bit about " El Jawaz L Mot3a" , can you tell me more about it ! also the pros & the cons about it iza kelo 7alel w hek etc...

According to Sayyed Mohammad Hussein..
المتعة فهي ما يلي: لقد أجمع المسلمون على تشريع زواج المتعة، بل وتضافرت الأحاديث على العمل به في زمن النبي "ص" وفي تمام عهد خلافة أبي بكر، وفي جزء من عهد خلافة عمر، ثم إستقر الرأي الفقهي عند غير الشيعة الإمامية من المذاهب الفقهية على تحريمها، في حين ظل الشيعة على القول بحليتها. وزواج المتعة يسمى بـ(الزواج المؤقت أو الزواج المنقطع)، وذلك لأن له وقتً معيناً ينتهي فيه بدون طلاق، بخلاف الزواج العادي المسمى بـ(الدائم)، فإنه لم يحدد له وقت خاص، فيستمر ولا ينتهي إلا بالطلاق. وهذا الزواج يشبه الزواج الدائم في كثير من أموره، ويختلف عنه بما يلي: أولاً: يجب أن يذكر في صيغة العقد المهر والمدة، والصيغة هي: أ-أن تقول المرأة: زوجتك نفسي بمهر قدره (...) لمدة (...). ب - فيقول الرجل: قبلت. ثانياً: ينتهي هذا الزواج بإنتهاء مدته المحددة في العقد بدون حاجة إلى طلاق
أما التزوج من البكر الرشيدة دون إذن وليها فهو صحيح ، لكن الأفضل تركه لما فيه من ضرر معنوي على مستقبل الفتاة، وإن حدث فالأفضل تجنب الدخول

البكر الرشيدة refers to a virgin who is aware of the consequences of her own decisions and is able to hold her own..which means being responsible with her money, decisions and can lead her own life..regardless if she is receiving financial help. Though it is not "7aram" if the virgin doesn't tell the parents but it would be preferable if permission is taken from the parents.

The other maraje3 share the same opinion except for the part concerning having mot3a with a virgin.
Sayyed Ali Khamenei and Sayyed Ali Al-Sistani say that permission from the virgin's parents MUST be taken.

[mr_j]

Fi dabab ya3ne????

the veil is about covering the hair isn't it? so it is visibility
some customs maybe extended to covering all the arms (mostly for sunnis) to even wearing gloves

It is in no way a "slight" risk.
Societies have proved that so far

what societies are we comparing exactly?
christians in syria and lebanon do not use veils, wade3na mich hal2ad ta3is

You can show respect in many different ways.
Chinese show respect by bowing to the person they are addressing.

but it doesn't seem optionnal in islam if you choose to show respect or not, for may physical contact especialy with strabgers is like a definite no
and it really restricts equal partnerships and friendships between opposite sexes
it is normal to return from holiday vacation and shake hands and kiss your classmates, but the closest you might get t doing that with a female class mate is standing 4 feets away and bowing your head
communication might be difficult when you need to constantly remind yourself not to take your eyes anywhere else than the face of the one you are talking to and at the same time make sure you do not hold eye contact or a gaze to the face that might be considered longer than usual and preceived as hostile.


perhaps I am exagerating, it is because I really don't see the point
all of this is only to prevent impure thoughts that are inevitable anyway

[Kain]

Originally Posted by mr_j

the veil is about covering the hair isn't it? so it is visibility
some customs maybe extended to covering all the arms (mostly for sunnis) to even wearing gloves

See what i mean about you not getting the facts right??
The hijab is about covering all that can be sexually appealing...which means covering hair and body...and wearing loose fitting clothes so that the shape of the body cannot appear.

Originally Posted by mr_j

what societies are we comparing exactly?
christians in syria and lebanon do not use veils, wade3na mich hal2ad ta3is

Societies where sexual relations are a normal thing.
Where you can openly talk to a girl and compliment her on her "rack" and have her smile right back at you.
Societies where women are used in advertisements as a sexual figure.
VS.
Societies where the role of the mind is glorified and your genitals are kept in your pants.
Where women are not used as sexual objects and then demand that women be treated equally.
Where women are not considered as an object to a man's whims.
I don't care about Saudi Arabia..i don't care about egypt...i'm talking about where women are treated with the respect they deserve...where the mother, the wife, and the sister are considered as saints.

Originally Posted by mr_j

but it doesn't seem optionnal in islam if you choose to show respect or not, for may physical contact especialy with strabgers is like a definite no

Ma fhemet 3lek ktir but i'm going to go ahead and say mbala ghasban 3an raso l wa7ad baddo yfarje respect

Originally Posted by mr_j

and it really restricts equal partnerships and friendships between opposite sexes

S2al mjarrib w la tes2al 7akeem.
If you feel uncomfortable that's because you haven't tried it before and you yourself have told me that you'd feel uncomfortable talking to one.
1- I wasn't always religious and didn't have friends who wore the hijab..only family members.
2- I became religious when i became a high school senior and in my first year in college i became friends with many of those girls who are very religious.
3- They consider me as a brother and i consider them as sisters and we truly act in that way...
It does not restrict friendships.
And i see no valid reason that you presented why it would restrict an equal partnership...just talk..

Originally Posted by mr_j

it is normal to return from holiday vacation and shake hands and kiss your classmates, but the closest you might get t doing that with a female class mate is standing 4 feets away and bowing your head

Ma fiha shi law elet masalan " meshta2in"
Stop giving false examples based SOLELY on how you would react.

Originally Posted by mr_j

communication might be difficult when you need to constantly remind yourself not to take your eyes anywhere else than the face of the one you are talking to and at the same time make sure you do not hold eye contact or a gaze to the face that might be considered longer than usual and preceived as hostile.


perhaps I am exagerating, it is because I really don't see the point
all of this is only to prevent impure thoughts that are inevitable anyway

1- Yes you are exagerating
2- You're talking without ANY experience whatsoever in dealing with this matter so until you try it stop making ridiculous assumptions.
3- Inevitable?? Supposing they are it is the frequency of those impure thoughts that differs between the 2 examples i mentioned earlier and how those 2 persons deal with those thoughts.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally Posted by mr_j

the veil is about covering the hair isn't it? so it is visibility
some customs maybe extended to covering all the arms (mostly for sunnis) to even wearing gloves

Our maraje3 specify how much should be covered. Shiite women cover the arms too and down the wrists. Only the hands and face are allowed to be seen (With covering the face being a recommendation and not a must to some shiite maraje3)

Originally Posted by mr_j

what societies are we comparing exactly?
christians in syria and lebanon do not use veils, wade3na mich hal2ad ta3is

I don't want to start an argument that will go nowhere and just upset many forum members maybe, but I will only say this. I wouldn't ever want my shiite sub-society that lives within the lebanese society to be like the christian sub-society in Lebanon.

Originally Posted by mr_j

but it doesn't seem optionnal in islam if you choose to show respect or not, for may physical contact especialy with strabgers is like a definite no
and it really restricts equal partnerships and friendships between opposite sexes

It doesnt restrict it no. You are mixing up, it regulates it.

Originally Posted by mr_j

it is normal to return from holiday vacation and shake hands and kiss your classmates, but the closest you might get t doing that with a female class mate is standing 4 feets away and bowing your head

It is normal in your religion and culture, it is not in ours. Physical contact is unnecessary and might carry a lot of bad effects

Originally Posted by mr_j

communication might be difficult when you need to constantly remind yourself not to take your eyes anywhere else than the face of the one you are talking to and at the same time make sure you do not hold eye contact or a gaze to the face that might be considered longer than usual and preceived as hostile.

You are exaggerating, it is not hard at all. And ofcourse it is easier when all you can see is the face

Originally Posted by mr_j

perhaps I am exagerating, it is because I really don't see the point
all of this is only to prevent impure thoughts that are inevitable anyway

Now if you see a woman walking down the street wearing the proper veil with all the proper hijabi wardrobe and another girl with a short skirt and tight half-shirt, you will have inevitable thoughts towards both anyway?

And if they werent together and lets assume you are always h*rny and thinking about those ideas, will the same thoughts arise from seeing both?

If you say yeah, you would be just arguing for the sake of argument, and this thread has no space for that.

At the end, every rule might fail in very rare cases, but studying its overall effect on society is the way to judge its success.

As for the women, I think it is the ultimate way to respect them by keeping their beauty hidden and by keeping it for one man who she would give for all she has and he would do the same as well. The effects on relationships are really not hidden from anyone. Check the rates of cheating in any other society, the rates of rape, the rates of divorce, unwanted teen pregnancies and HIV and other STDs and then check them in a proper muslim society. After you do that, come and try with a straight face to say about a theory that works in practice that it is wrong in theory....

[mr_j]

Now if you see a woman walking down the street wearing the proper veil with all the proper hijabi wardrobe and another girl with a short skirt and tight half-shirt, you will have inevitable thoughts towards both anyway?

I can see fully naked women walking on the street, and not have a single impure thought, and I am willing to prove it if you can get us a few naked women to parade in front of me , because it doesn't mean much to me, I see other people who might druel over an open sandal.it might be simple the amount of restriction they were excercicing over time
you just need to have these thoughts it is inevitable, it's not what others are wearing, it is in our instinct like food and water. I still question the effectivity of the veil.