Capitalism vs Communism [Formal Debate]

[Tawa]

This thread will be dedicated for a debate between our 2 members Sheriff Ice and RUSSIAN. Any reply posted by any other member will be removed. If you have a point of view you like to share, or any idea to support one of the sides, feel free to contact them by pm.

Debate Rules:
1. Each member has 3 days to reply after the last post is made by his rival. If the duration of 3 days is over and no reply was made, the debate is considered over.
2. Only RUSSIAN and Sheriff Ice are allowed to post in this thread.
3. Moderators have the right to interfere, in case the forum rules are broken.

Tips:
- Arguments, arguments and arguments.

Sheriff Ice will take the Capitalism's side, and he will proceed with his first post right away.

RUSSIAN will take the Communism's side, he will wait for Sheriff Ice to begin with the debate.

And for the two debaters please give us something worth reading

Go!

[Sheriff Ice]

I will start:

I do see that capitalism is a fuel for the humanity, it is a strong motivator for human kind to keep moving forward.

Maybe capitalism at a certain point is very rough and it is not fair when it comes to fortunes distributions among the people.

The communism has failed big time, it was proven by practice that communism will eventually transform into capitalism and the economy will be free after a time and private will arise as a need for the government.

its a short introduction.

let the debate begin

[RUSSIAN]

When it is a true communism (which wasn't anywhere yet) everyone gets what he needs, not less not more. There's no poor nor rich people. It can sound a little weird, but it requires some changes in human mentality. For now you, maybe, can't imagine such society. But 2000-1500 years ago many people wasn't able to imagine society without slavery (that sort of ppl isn't yet fully eliminated). In the true communist model there can't be any oppression for people, because its main source (nations and governments) are removed.
Capitalism maybe very motivative. But it leads to an uncontrolled itch for money. In the past we can see many examples. Western colonialism is one of them- it is a straight result of capitalism when people can do everything (rob, kill etc) to others when it will bring them money or nature resources. Communist ideology can never lead to it.

Originally Posted by Sheriff Ice

The communism has failed big time

No it hasn't. Some ppl just failed to establish it. For me I think it can't be made in one country because capitalists are scared of it and they quickly gather and begin a war against those who want to build communism. They find every traitor wich is there (they can be find in every nation) and buy him.

Originally Posted by Sheriff Ice

private will arise as a need for the government.

There can't be any government and communism at the same time. I guess what you call "communism" is a high socialism like it was in USSR or is in China or Cuba. It is, according to Marx & co, a step to true communism. For now we see that it doesn't transform to communism so that theory didn't work under the current circumstances.

[Sheriff Ice]

Originally Posted by RUSSIAN

When it is a true communism (which wasn't anywhere yet) everyone gets what he needs, not less not more. There's no poor nor rich people. It can sound a little weird, but it requires some changes in human mentality. For now you, maybe, can't imagine such society. But 2000-1500 years ago many people wasn't able to imagine society without slavery (that sort of ppl isn't yet fully eliminated). In the true communist model there can't be any oppression for people, because its main source (nations and governments) are removed.
Capitalism maybe very motivative. But it leads to an uncontrolled itch for money. In the past we can see many examples. Western colonialism is one of them- it is a straight result of capitalism when people can do everything (rob, kill etc) to others when it will bring them money or nature resources. Communist ideology can never lead to it.

No it hasn't. Some ppl just failed to establish it. For me I think it can't be made in one country because capitalists are scared of it and they quickly gather and begin a war against those who want to build communism. They find every traitor wich is there (they can be find in every nation) and buy him.

There can't be any government and communism at the same time. I guess what you call "communism" is a high socialism like it was in USSR or is in China or Cuba. It is, according to Marx & co, a step to true communism. For now we see that it doesn't transform to communism so that theory didn't work under the current circumstances.

Why Should a Working and consistent man who works for more than 12 hours like a Dr. or an engineer should be paying the salary of a person who lives on the margin of society?

Why should a Motivated person who studied for more than 5-6 years be getting the same salary the same car the same house, where is the compensation the reward for him of being a better person?

is it fair, that you work hard to pay taxes, and the other side there a person who all he do all day is peeing, drinking alcohol, smoking pot gets ur money at the end of the month?

Dont you think when people fail to apply an idea, the idea itself fail as well?
Utopia and flawless ideas are great and awesome, but at the end its human nature who will apply it, an idea fails when it fails in practice, yeah communism is very beautiful on paper and in books but in real life, its a big prison for the society and the human nature.

on a side note, i do believe that applying a certain type of regime is dependent on the people itself.

Socialism works great in Scandinavian countries, this kind of people is peaceful not always seeking rush and innovation.

Communism as said has failed maybe it is still working in china and in Cuba, due to several reasons, in china the government understood where the world is going and i do believe that the chines system is so liberal more than the US itself, when you have plants for all the multinational companies on ur land do u think that china is still communist, more than 20-30 Chinese are on the fortune 500 list in the world is this communism?
the only place that communism still exists in china is the security system, and i do believe that they need it in order to control over 1 billion citizen.

In cuba the situation is funny every body is leaving Fidel Castro is dying,they wont last more than 5 years.

[RUSSIAN]

Why Should a Working and consistent man who works for more than 12 hours like a Dr. or an engineer should be paying the salary of a person who lives on the margin of society?

Well, but why some man who is a programmer (even not the best one, but he invented an idea of some device/soft and is paid for life for it) or a man from wall street get much more than that one who work for 12 hours or more to just have a piece of bread? Why 5000 families should own 45% of land in a country where many others don't have any land and suffer from it? Why he who invented some Pyramid scheme should have his own airplanes and ships, his own houses and live like a god when others even don't have a car to get to their work which is much harder?
The earth for now can handle all human needs, but millions of ppl here are hungry because others are taking too much.

is it fair, that you work hard to pay taxes, and the other side there a person who all he do all day is peeing, drinking alcohol, smoking pot gets ur money at the end of the month?

Keep in mind that such non-working persons are Enemies of communism. In the new society there shouldn't be such persons (of corse there will be such ppl, but they should be like criminals).

Dont you think when people fail to apply an idea, the idea itself fail as well?

No. If you have to write a program and you failed to write/run it, it doesn't tell that the idea is fail. Maybe you just failed. To know it, you and others should try many times.

do u think that china is still communist

No and it wasn't. It leaders were and are communists but they didn't build it there. And now they are going to be more capitalist not to be in isolation like that Cuba.

In cuba the situation is funny every body is leaving Fidel Castro is dying,they wont last more than 5 years.

But that funny Cuba was able to resist USA's invasion and didn't become its satellite, although it is so near.

[Sheriff Ice]

Originally Posted by RUSSIAN

Well, but why some man who is a programmer (even not the best one, but he invented an idea of some device/soft and is paid for life for it) or a man from wall street get much more than that one who work for 12 hours or more to just have a piece of bread? Why 5000 families should own 45% of land in a country where many others don't have any land and suffer from it? Why he who invented some Pyramid scheme should have his own airplanes and ships, his own houses and live like a god when others even don't have a car to get to their work which is much harder?
The earth for now can handle all human needs, but millions of ppl here are hungry because others are taking too much.
Keep in mind that such non-working persons are Enemies of communism. In the new society there shouldn't be such persons (of corse there will be such ppl, but they should be like criminals).
No. If you have to write a program and you failed to write/run it, it doesn't tell that the idea is fail. Maybe you just failed. To know it, you and others should try many times.
No and it wasn't. It leaders were and are communists but they didn't build it there. And now they are going to be more capitalist not to be in isolation like that Cuba.
But that funny Cuba was able to resist USA's invasion and didn't become its satellite, although it is so near.

First Sorry for my late reply i wasn't connected these couple of days

What if all man Needs has been satisfied? How will humanity keep evaluating, why will the doctor or the Wall Street Guy who studied for maybe more than 5 years in Harvard keep giving the same outcome?

Why would i or why would you bother yourself to keep studying and getting more knowledge when you know that you are going to be paid similarly like you neighbor who didn't get even to high-school.

Ok i agree with you Communism is Very beautiful when it come to equality and preserving all the citizens rights, but My friend this is not how world/people works.
Human are greedy, not only for money but as well for knowledge, for social recognition, for power, for love, for believes.

Humans in their nature are lazy people, for me i see that communism is an appropriate environment for the development of this laziness, look to russia under the Soviet union, prostitution and famine got everywhere, and don't tell me this is not because of communism, yes it is!!
While USA was busy developing their economy, universities, making research, looking to the sky, USSR was busy feeding their people fighting corruption(that is a result of the human greed for power/money/knowledge),

Now you will tell me, Russia had one of the biggest research centers i Agree but how many researcher was free of thinking they were under threatening over their, im pretty sure if the same people were under a capitalist system Russia would have conquered the world, Russia is the only country in the world that has it all,
Land, Raw Materials, Oil, People, Knowledge, and the most important they have the will.

this is it for the moment

[RUSSIAN]

Humans in their nature are lazy people, for me i see that communism is an appropriate environment for the development of this laziness,

Yes, it's true that they are lazy. But if humans themselves never feel a need for knowledge why they still didn't apply that communism if it is so good environment for lazy persons?
In history, we see lots of men who were always trying to improve their knowledge not only without any motivations, but even with a risk for their life. Giordano Bruno didn't get any payment for his work
In the past there wasn't such a big need for studying a very big time. But we see many guys who wanted to study new things and it was before any capitalism.
of course, there will be a percentage (in the beginning it could be big) of those who will not work, will not study, who will just eat and nothing else. No theory can be applyed 100% completely, especially in one day.

Human are greedy, not only for money but as well for knowledge, for social recognition

It is true. And it answers your question about why some one should work or study without capitalism's Motivation .

look to russia under the Soviet union, prostitution and famine got everywhere, and don't tell me this is not because of communism, yes it is!!

Sorry but I will. For now there's nothing related to communism, it is bashed in media, communists are out. But these things you talk about didn't get out, they become only stronger. And there's no communism in Thailand, but prostitution is there, there is much more prostitution there then in USSR. Also it is in many capitalist countries, in Netherlands for example. It is almost everywhere and was before any communism.

While USA was busy developing their economy, universities, making research, looking to the sky, USSR was busy feeding their people fighting corruption(that is a result of the human greed for power/money/knowledge),

Which didn't prevent it to be equal or better then USA. Most of our problems began when USSR was destroyed.

how many researcher was free of thinking they were under threatening

Yes, I agree, it was one of our problems.

im pretty sure if the same people were under a capitalist system

Ok now they are. Maybe, that capitalism, but it is. And the science get down very much last 20 years (not last 10, but last 20, mostly in 1991-1999, so ppl were the same).

[RUSSIAN]

Maybe, that capitalism isn't 100%clear

I think I ment it, just a typing mistake.

[Sheriff Ice]

Honestly i am not having enough time to reply, or sometimes to read replies, i consider russian won the debate

congratulations