is HA THAT strong?

[Bavarian]

Originally Posted by El-Meghwar

hmm
care to explain your idea?
I didn't know that Hezbollah is an Iranian tool!! please enlighten us with your facts and proofs

Originally Posted by TAREK®

can u plz tell us what u know about their visions and slogans and ambitions? I would like to know based on what u made a statement

This is familiar..


and this, maybe slighty look-alike


The first one is the Flag and Hizbullah with the slogan "al-moqawama al-islamiyya"

and the second is the Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Al-Haras Al-Thawri)



This..

and how can I trust a sectarian-affiliated resistance? Fighting in the name of the "big" nation.
Lebanon is "one" of their priorities, but ambitions are much bigger.

[RUSSIAN]

Originally Posted by Bavarian

This is familiar..


and this, maybe slighty look-alike


The first one is the Flag and Hizbullah with the slogan "al-moqawama al-islamiyya"

and the second is the Iranian Revolutionary Guards (Al-Haras Al-Thawri)



This..

Is that all???
Very convincing proves.

[Bavarian]

Originally Posted by RUSSIAN

Is that all???
Very convincing proves.

U didnt quote the whole of my post.

And yes, I find this is a very logical prove

[Kain]

And how did you conclude: fighting in the name of Iran and fulfilling every one of Iran's wishes from : Having similar slogans??

You do realize that in any logical, and i do mean logical debate, you would be making a mockery of yourself. You do not even have a link between the similar slogans and the agenda.

Shaklak jdeed 3al siyeseh aw 3a se7et l ni2ash...but it's ok there's room for improvement

[Kain]

But hell i could use a laugh, let's give you a few pointers and i'll help you guide the debate

Tell me about their agenda, how they fulfilled iran's ambitions for the past 20 years. Leave trusting them aside. I would really like to see you give actual facts and see how you analyze them.

You must excuse my language...normally i wouldn't be so sarcastic but your display of information took a kind of aggressive tone, it would only be fitting to have you face the same tone you used...ma3 bharat tab3an

[Bavarian]

Don't worry mate, I will not consider your language, In Lebanon you get used to such language when you give your opinion about a specific party, Like your new to politics (all of us know nothing about politics btw) or your so young and etc... thank God weapons are not used in Political forums.. You would see half of the members dead

Back to Topic
Read this quote

According to Ahmad Nizar Hamzeh in "In the Path of Hizbullah" four crisis conditions catalyzed the emergence of Hezbollah:

• 1. Identity crisis and persecution

When Lebanon became independent on November 22, 1943, "the Shiites felt that they were the despised stepchildren of a state governed by a Maronite-Sunni alliance."(Hamzeh, 2004: 12) The Shiites were ripe for every Shi'a protective organization like Hezbollah.

The point is, The sectarian view is the reason why Hizbullah was created.
Nothing patriotic-wise im my honest opinion

And I mentioned for you before, the great nation, which here is called "Umma"
On February 16, 1985, Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin issued Hezbollah's manifesto. Translated

excerpts from Hezbollah's original 1985 manifesto read:

We are the sons of the umma (Muslim community) ...
... We are an ummah linked to the Muslims of the whole world by the solid doctrinal and religious connection of Islam, whose message God wanted to be fulfilled by the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., Prophet Muhammad. ... As for our culture, it is based on the Holy Quran, the Sunna and the legal rulings of the faqih who is our source of imitation...

Although Hezbollah originally aimed to transform Lebanon into a formal Faqihi Islamic republic, this goal has been abandoned. Since that time, Hezbollah has transformed from a revolutionary movement to a socio-political movement of Lebanese Shi'a and has accepted the multi-cultural situation of Lebanon.

Moreover,
I say that a country inside a country, making own laws, and owning this huge amount of lethal Medium and Heavy weapons in an Independant so-called Democratic Republic, means those people do not even care for the Nation they call Lebanon.

[El-Meghwar]

Bavarian,
Quoting all your posts would take a lot of my time, that's why i will reply in a general way concerning every point you provoked.

1st- concerning the Flag issue, what does a similar flag have to do with a certain case?
is the communist party in Lebanon related to the communist party in China?
if we want to use your logic, we will not find any patriotic party in Lebanon, except the Lebanese forces who has a different flag than the Israeli one, but it happens to have the same goals and interests.
so Mr Bavarian, being puppets for a certain country and having a certain political agenda doesn't have to be related with a similar flag.

2nd- concerning the Manifesto of Hezbollah declared in 1985, it seems that you stopped watching news since the day when Miroslav Klose started to play football.
Maybe someone should update you that Hezbollah declared its new manifesto few months ago by SHN, and this manifesto is the only official paper that represents Hezbollah and its political stances and principles.

3rd- going back to 1943 in order to attack Shiites and evaluating their patriotism is not a very good idea.
No one was patriotic enough at that time and no one has the right to evaluate others, every sect was linked to a foreign country, and i guess Shiites were the less people who had political relations with foreign countries at that time.
Actually they are the only one who defended Lebanon since independence, and if we put all the History aside, july war 2006 alone is the biggest proof, if Hezbollah was defeated in that war, we would have witnessed another 1982 invasion.
Hezbollah are the only ones who defended Lebanon's Independence, Sovereignty and Freedom, and they payed blood for it.
If we were living in a civilized country not a jungle, Hezbollah have the complete right in taking the power in this country and ruling it the way they like, because they are the ones who protected its existence since 1982 and the last battle of existence was in 2006.
Tell me what Kataeb-LF-Future Movement or PSP has done in order to defend this country??
they did nothing, they are the civil war heroes, they made massacres and killed Lebanese innocent civilians just for being from a different sect (that if we didn't mention their master-slave relations with countries of the region.

Finally let me tell you the following:
Hezbollah is a legitimate resistance, the ministerial statement that was signed by all the parties in the Lebanese government gave legitimacy to Hezbollah and approved their right to defend Lebanon against any Israel attack.
So if you don't agree on this, you have to ask the ministers who represent you in the government to resign, or ask them to shut up because they are participating in a government that legalized the role of the resistance(ma3 l 3elem inno resistance doesn't need anyone's approval).

[Kain]

Originally Posted by Bavarian

Don't worry mate, I will not consider your language, In Lebanon you get used to such language when you give your opinion about a specific party,

but why of course !!

Originally Posted by Bavarian

Hizbullah is an Iranian tool on the Lebanese lands, even their vision, slogan and ambitions have nothing to do with the Lebanese cause

And this was of course was just an opinion. Of course you my friend are one to know about "such" language when you're the one who used it.
I will refer you to my previously used sentence

Originally Posted by Moi

normally i wouldn't be so sarcastic but your display of information took a kind of aggressive tone, it would only be fitting to have you face the same tone you used...ma3 bharat tab3an

And seriously....don't take my tone personally. You'll get used to it. Although i seriously hope you don't get used to it because i only use it when the person i'm debating resorts to it first.

Originally Posted by Bavarian

Like your new to politics (all of us know nothing about politics btw)

Well we clearly know nothing about politics (eddem l kbar), but we do have the common sense to debate the things we do know about. Iremember debating in such matters 3 years ago. These arguments were being used then w ba3do l 7ake nafso. If i'm not mistaken the user who used the flags in the debate back then was called BG, if you have time to spare feel free to look him up. And btw the issue was not about if we know about politics or not, it was about being new to it

Originally Posted by Bavarian

Back to Topic

One of the things i hate alot is when someone from a different political opinion tries to debate in a forum whose members mostly follow a certain opinion and finds 10 members replying to his each and every post. We've had our share of luck in future movement forums just as some members a long time ago had their share of luck here. Although to be fair in fm forums they directly ban you for being different...here however that kind of reckless attitude sadly drove the other members out.

Anyway...since El-Meghwar is currently debating you and i know that he's more than capable of doing so, i will stand aside for now unless he's away for a long time or is too busy to do so.

Good luck

[Bavarian]

Originally Posted by El-Meghwar

Bavarian,
Quoting all your posts would take a lot of my time, that's why i will reply in a general way concerning every point you provoked.

Same here, I will not point all of what you said in this post.
A wise leader once said, "all of us have a vision toward lebanon, all of us want lebanon to survive, but each one of us is walking in his own way thinking it is the right way"

Originally Posted by El-Meghwar

1st- concerning the Flag issue, what does a similar flag have to do with a certain case?
is the communist party in Lebanon related to the communist party in China?

Excuse me here, flags and slogans "inspired" from other DO mean something
And we all know that Communism wolrd wide is similar in the basics

Originally Posted by El-Meghwar

Maybe someone should update you that Hezbollah declared its new manifesto few months ago by SHN, and this manifesto is the only official paper that represents Hezbollah and its political stances and principles.

Few months ago? Give me a break
You are critisizing the Lebanese Forces on their history, and now you are declaring that Hizbullah history have changed since few months? Or even few years?

Originally Posted by El-Meghwar

Actually they are the only one who defended Lebanon since independence, and if we put all the History aside, july war 2006 alone is the biggest proof, if Hezbollah was defeated in that war, we would have witnessed another 1982 invasion.
Hezbollah are the only ones who defended Lebanon's Independence, Sovereignty and Freedom, and they payed blood for it.
If we were living in a civilized country not a jungle, Hezbollah have the complete right in taking the power in this country and ruling it the way they like, because they are the ones who protected its existence since 1982 and the last battle of existence was in 2006.

I don't deny that Hizbullah defended, but they only defended their areas which is little away from actual claims.
Since the independence, Millions of incidents happened in Lebanon, and its quite ignorant to say that they are the only one who defended Lebanon.
I don't know you political affiliation, but Aounists will not agree with you, I will not say LFers, just to avoid entering in an endless debate about the LF history.

[The Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bavarian

Excuse me here, flags and slogans "inspired" from other DO mean something
And we all know that Communism world wide is similar in the basics

Fine then...they were influenced by the Iranian revolution that to them represented fighting oppression and upholding justice.They adopt a similar flag.It means nothing else than having similar flags unless you prove otherwise.
Your whole entire argument is weak if based solely on the flag thing.
Your point being?There are many different Hizbullah parties in different countries that don't necessarily share the same principles.This isn't about them or about similarities between communist parties.This is about the Lebanese HA.

Originally Posted by Bavarian

You are criticizing the Lebanese Forces on their history, and now you are declaring that Hizbullah history have changed since few months? Or even few years?

LFers are criticized for their history by some because in their eyes LFers have not backed down from that history.Whether you agree to that or not is a different thing.
When the old manifesto was around,argument was "Look at that manifesto!!Wanting an Islamic rule!",new manifesto comes to be and we get referred back to history?HA did change its manifesto publically therefore you have to act accordingly.
A manifesto is a public declaration of principles and intentions, often political in nature. Manifestos relating to religious belief are generally referred to as a creed. Manifestos may also be life stance-related.
Also,The MOU:
ب - الشفافية والصراحة، وتغليب المصلحة الوطنية على أي مصلحة أخرى

Originally Posted by Bavarian

I don't deny that Hizbullah defended, but they only defended their areas which is little away from actual claims.
Since the independence, Millions of incidents happened in Lebanon, and its quite ignorant to say that they are the only one who defended Lebanon.

Defending their own "areas" (All of Lebanon is their and my and your area,all of us being Lebanese ) thus preventing Israel from reaching other places in-depth.It really is that simple.
No HA means Israel goes past what you call "HA areas" then reaches even beyond them.
There are parties that fought and resisted actual foreign occupations...no one denies that.And no one is denied of their right to resist occupation if they wanted to no matter who they are.
Still you haven't made quite clear what's your point regarding ambitions and visions of HA.