Secular parties in lebanon.....and their role in the civil war

[getryne]

Originally Posted by IBIN BATTOUTA

other secular parties....
there are other secular parties nowadays.
one of them is the fpm.

independance....
ssnp was fighting for lebanon's independance as part of greater syria not as an independant country.
meanwhile pierre gemayel fought for lebanon as an independant country.
my doubt....this is the part ssnp doesn't like.

relations with israel....
you are going far back in history.
and bringing the kataeb - israel relationship to 1948.
based on what facts?.
when there were no israel?.

when you fought you war in 1975,
did you feel that president franjieh was pro - israel for example?.

and how come ssnp were allied to the syrian forces in 1976 fighting the national movement parties and helping kataeb.
was it ssnp choice or ssnp loyalty to syrian regime?.
was it based on the national movement alliance with israel?.

when you fought you war against Tawheed islamic movement in tripoli,
was it ssnp choice or ssnp loyalty to syrian regime?.
was it based on the Tawheed islamic movement alliance with israel?.

i say this for reasons.
secular parties hold ideologies, which even enemies tend to respect.
followers don't.

you try all the way to disguise the truth.
the truth is that Antoun Saade ideology was not based on ssnp being followers to syrian regimes.
in fact his ideology threatens the syrian regime, as it calls for dissolving it in a bigger entity.
it is in complete contradiction with a dictatorship called Assad family regime.

have no comment on the ideology....as i read about...and this is not what we are discussing here.

have hell of comments on practicing the ideology.....
ssnp sold the ideology except for the name...syrian.

this is what we are talking about.

ok here's my answers, read well, every part alone....

INDEPENDENCE
JUST LOOK OUT 4 THIS INDEPENDENCE HISTORY, ND DONT FOLLOW THE "HISTORY BOOKS", THOSE LIES WHICH WE STUDY IN SKOOL, WHO R THE HEREOS OF THIS HISTORY: RIYAD LSOL7? BCHARA LKHOURI? SABRY 7MEDA, PIERRE JMAYYIL? HOW COME THEY WERE ALL OF THEM PATRIOTS WHILE FRENCH WERE STILL IN LEBANON, HOW COME THEY WERE PRESIDENTS, PMs, PARLIAMENT MEMBERS???? OF COURSE SSNP FOUGHT 4 THE INDEPENDENCE OF LEBANON, AS A PART OF OUR SYRIAN NATION... ND FOUGHT 4 THE INDEPENDENCE OF SHAM AS A PART OF MY NATION, SAME 4 IRAQ, PALESTINE, JORDAN.... THAT'S Y U CAN FIND THE MARTYR "NORMA ABI 7ASSAN" WHO COMES FROM ZGHARTA FIGHTING IN THE SOUTH, OR "MAHMOUD KANA3A" WHO COMES FROM SYRIA FIGHTIN IN KIRYATSHMONA, OR " YI7YA SKAFF(IN ISRAELI PRISONS RIGHT NOW" WHO COMES FROM TRIPOLI FIGHTING IN PALESTINE"

RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL


إيهود يعاري - صحافي إسرائيلي

بالتأكيد لا، كانت القاعدة، وأود التشديد على ذلك أن الاتصالات ليس على بالضرورة على أعلى المستويات بين الموارنة ومبعوثيهم على المستويات المنخفضة مع دوائر الموساد وأحياناً وزارة الدفاع ووزارة الخارجية، هذه الاتصالات كانت دائمة، كانت ظاهرة دائمة مستمرة، وعندما تُفتح سجلات وزارة الخارجية لأنني لا أعتقد أن سجلات الموساد ستفتح، سيرى العالم بأسره حقيقة هذه الاتصالات، في هذه الفترة كانت الاتصالات تتم في باريس وأول الاتصالات المتعلقة بالحرب الأهلية اللبنانية بدأت مباشرةً بعد اندلاع الحرب، في
أبريل/ نيسان عام 75 تدريجياً ازدادت كثافة الاتصالات وارتفع مستوى ممثلي الطرفين، إلى أن حصل في نهاية المطاف لقاء على
زورق صواريخ إسرائيلي بين اسحق رابين وكميل شمعون والشيخ بيير الجميل

NO COMMENTS......

and how come ssnp were allied to the syrian forces in 1976 fighting the national movement parties and helping kataeb.
HEY HEY WATCH OUT THATS A BIG MISTAKE, IT SEEMS U DIDN'T WATCH "LEBANESE CIVIL WAR" PRETTY WELL, JUST CHECH IT AGAIN... WHEN SYRIAN FORCES ENTERED LEB, THEY HAD NO FIGHT WITH LEBANESE YAMIN, THE 1ST BATTLES WHICH STARTED WERE BETWEEN SYRIAN FORCES ND LEBANESE YASAR, "SYRIANS VS. COMMUNISTS" , "SYRIANS VS. PALESTINIANS" , " SYRIANS VS. ISHTIRAKI" , "SYRIANS VS. SSNP" ( THE BATTLES BETWEEN SYRIANS FORCES ND SSNP STARTED IN KOURA , ND R WELL-KNOWN AS KOURA BATTLES) , KAMAL JUNBLAT WAS THE 1ST VICTIM OF THE YASAR-SYRIAN FIGHT......

when you fought you war against Tawheed islamic movement in tripoli,
was it ssnp choice or ssnp loyalty to syrian regime?.
was it based on the Tawheed islamic movement alliance with israel?.

U WANNA KNOW WAT HAPPENED IN THAT WAR, JUST CHECK OUT WAT HAPPENED IN TRIPOLI AT THAT TIME.... I'LL TELL U ANYWAYS.... TRIPOLI BECAME AN "IMARA ISLAMIYYA" LEADED BY TAW7ID... CHRISTIANS RAN AWAY FROM TRIPOLI OR KILLED ON THE ROADS.... TAW7ID COMMITED A WELL-KNOWN MASSCARE IN TRIPOLI(SPECIFICALY IN MINA) AGAINST THE COMMUNISTS(MAJZARIT LSHOUYOU3IYYI)...ALL PARTIES LEFT TRIPOLI EXCEPT ONE PARTY: SSNP( WE FOUGHT TAW7ID IN THEIR PLACES, ALL OVER TRIPOLI, WE WERE OVER-COUNTED, LESS ARMED, BT WE DEFENDED MARAKIZNA..... SYRIANS FORCES ENTERED TRIPOLI LATER ON, WITH ALL THE PARTIES BACK TO TRIPOLI: INCLUDING, COMMUNISTS, SSNP, NASIRI, ISHTIRAKI......

CONCERNING MY IDEOLOGY: OF COURSE AM IN A CONFLICT WITH ALL LEBANESE ND NON-LEBANESE PARTIES ND MOVEMENTS( INCLUSING BA3TH) , THAT DOESN'T MEAN FIGHTIN THEM.... IF ALI KANSO, OR AS3AD 7ARDAN SHOW U A TYPICAL PRO-SYRIANS, THEN F*** THEM, I EVEN HATE THEM.... U EVER SEEN A PARTY MEMBER WHO HATES HIS LEADERSHIP, YEAH TRUST ME, IN SSNP IT HAPPENS....
IF U THINK WE SOLD OUR IDEOLOGY 2 BACHAR L2ASAD, DO U THINK BACHAR L2ASAD ASKED US TO FIGHT ISRAELIS IN 2007 ( I MEAN THE SSNP, SSNP GROUPS WERE FIGHTIN SIDE BY SIDE WITH HIZBULLAH).... I BELEIVE WE HAVE MISTAKES... MAYBE SOMEWAT DEFENDING BACHAR L2ASAD REGIME, MORE THAN IT NEEDS.... BT IF U WANNA WAT SSNP IDEOLOGY DOES, THEN WAIT 4 A SYRIAN-ISRAELI WAR, OR A LEBANESE-ISRAELI WAR.... MAYBE U CAN C A NEW 7ABIB CHARTOUNI, OR NEW SANA2 M7AYDLI.....

[IBIN BATTOUTA]

Originally Posted by getryne

ok here's my answers, read well, every part alone....

INDEPENDENCE
JUST LOOK OUT 4 THIS INDEPENDENCE HISTORY, ND DONT FOLLOW THE "HISTORY BOOKS", THOSE LIES WHICH WE STUDY IN SKOOL, WHO R THE HEREOS OF THIS HISTORY: RIYAD LSOL7? BCHARA LKHOURI? SABRY 7MEDA, PIERRE JMAYYIL? HOW COME THEY WERE ALL OF THEM PATRIOTS WHILE FRENCH WERE STILL IN LEBANON, HOW COME THEY WERE PRESIDENTS, PMs, PARLIAMENT MEMBERS???? .....

enough man.
should i even reply to this?.

Originally Posted by getryne

OF COURSE SSNP FOUGHT 4 THE INDEPENDENCE OF LEBANON, AS A PART OF OUR SYRIAN NATION... ND FOUGHT 4 THE INDEPENDENCE OF SHAM AS A PART OF MY NATION, SAME 4 IRAQ, PALESTINE, JORDAN.... THAT'S Y U CAN FIND THE MARTYR "NORMA ABI 7ASSAN" WHO COMES FROM ZGHARTA FIGHTING IN THE SOUTH, OR "MAHMOUD KANA3A" WHO COMES FROM SYRIA FIGHTIN IN KIRYATSHMONA, OR " YI7YA SKAFF(IN ISRAELI PRISONS RIGHT NOW" WHO COMES FROM TRIPOLI FIGHTING IN PALESTINE".....

how many share your sham and your nation issue?.

you forgot by the way the martyr Halabi who was raiding a supermarket in Sofar.
ssnp is not the only one to attract different nationalities for a cause.
Al Qaeda is the living example.

did you know how many lebanese joined Fath until 1975?.
the ones i know are georges and andre.
they did not need to be ssnp members to fight for what was considered at that time a rightful cause.

they did it out of belief, they were not shouting it outloud as ssnp does.

Originally Posted by getryne

RELATIONS WITH ISRAEL
إيهود يعاري - صحافي إسرائيلي

بالتأكيد لا، كانت القاعدة، وأود التشديد على ذلك أن الاتصالات ليس على بالضرورة على أعلى المستويات بين الموارنة ومبعوثيهم على المستويات المنخفضة مع دوائر الموساد وأحياناً وزارة الدفاع ووزارة الخارجية، هذه الاتصالات كانت دائمة، كانت ظاهرة دائمة مستمرة، وعندما تُفتح سجلات وزارة الخارجية لأنني لا أعتقد أن سجلات الموساد ستفتح، سيرى العالم بأسره حقيقة هذه الاتصالات، في هذه الفترة كانت الاتصالات تتم في باريس وأول الاتصالات المتعلقة بالحرب الأهلية اللبنانية بدأت مباشرةً بعد اندلاع الحرب، في
أبريل/ نيسان عام 75 تدريجياً ازدادت كثافة الاتصالات وارتفع مستوى ممثلي الطرفين، إلى أن حصل في نهاية المطاف لقاء على
زورق صواريخ إسرائيلي بين اسحق رابين وكميل شمعون والشيخ بيير الجميل

NO COMMENTS.........

what you are telling here has become a common information.
where are the 1930, 1940 and 1948 relations.

Originally Posted by getryne

and how come ssnp were allied to the syrian forces in 1976 fighting the national movement parties and helping kataeb.
HEY HEY WATCH OUT THATS A BIG MISTAKE, IT SEEMS U DIDN'T WATCH "LEBANESE CIVIL WAR" PRETTY WELL, JUST CHECH IT AGAIN... WHEN SYRIAN FORCES ENTERED LEB, THEY HAD NO FIGHT WITH LEBANESE YAMIN, THE 1ST BATTLES WHICH STARTED WERE BETWEEN SYRIAN FORCES ND LEBANESE YASAR, "SYRIANS VS. COMMUNISTS" , "SYRIANS VS. PALESTINIANS" , " SYRIANS VS. ISHTIRAKI" , "SYRIANS VS. SSNP" ( THE BATTLES BETWEEN SYRIANS FORCES ND SSNP STARTED IN KOURA , ND R WELL-KNOWN AS KOURA BATTLES) , KAMAL JUNBLAT WAS THE 1ST VICTIM OF THE YASAR-SYRIAN FIGHT.......

1976 the ssnp members were targeted in areas controled by "national movement parties".
have any idea why?.
is it because ssnp were the eyes and ears of syrian forces posted in Sofar at that time?.
as for koura battle.....what?....koura ssnp were opening on their own?.
as we all know there were 2 wings for the ssnp.
tell me which wing was that?.

Originally Posted by getryne

when you fought you war against Tawheed islamic movement in tripoli,
was it ssnp choice or ssnp loyalty to syrian regime?.
was it based on the Tawheed islamic movement alliance with israel?.

U WANNA KNOW WAT HAPPENED IN THAT WAR, JUST CHECK OUT WAT HAPPENED IN TRIPOLI AT THAT TIME.... I'LL TELL U ANYWAYS.... TRIPOLI BECAME AN "IMARA ISLAMIYYA" LEADED BY TAW7ID... CHRISTIANS RAN AWAY FROM TRIPOLI OR KILLED ON THE ROADS.... TAW7ID COMMITED A WELL-KNOWN MASSCARE IN TRIPOLI(SPECIFICALY IN MINA) AGAINST THE COMMUNISTS(MAJZARIT LSHOUYOU3IYYI)...ALL PARTIES LEFT TRIPOLI EXCEPT ONE PARTY: SSNP( WE FOUGHT TAW7ID IN THEIR PLACES, ALL OVER TRIPOLI, WE WERE OVER-COUNTED, LESS ARMED, BT WE DEFENDED MARAKIZNA..... SYRIANS FORCES ENTERED TRIPOLI LATER ON, WITH ALL THE PARTIES BACK TO TRIPOLI: INCLUDING, COMMUNISTS, SSNP, NASIRI, ISHTIRAKI...

New York Times........October 8, 1985.
Syrian troops moved through Tripoli today, disarming rival Moslem militiamen, and the focus of Lebanon's factional war shifted to a Shiite-Palestinian battle in Beirut's refugee quarters.
The camp fighting was a renewal of a five-week clash earlier this year in which hundreds of people were killed and thousands wounded.
An 800-member Syrian unit that moved into Tripoli on Sunday occupied the northern port city's central district and fanned out across other sectors to disengage the militias.
No violence was reported in the Syrian effort to end an intermittent two-year-old war for control of Lebanon's second-largest city between pro-Syrian leftists and militiamen of the fundamentalist group Islamic Unification, which the Palestine Liberation Organization supports.
So...
it is syria vs PLO.
and as usual........powered by ssnp. (and others).

Originally Posted by getryne

CONCERNING MY IDEOLOGY: OF COURSE AM IN A CONFLICT WITH ALL LEBANESE ND NON-LEBANESE PARTIES ND MOVEMENTS( INCLUSING BA3TH) , THAT DOESN'T MEAN FIGHTIN THEM.... IF ALI KANSO, OR AS3AD 7ARDAN SHOW U A TYPICAL PRO-SYRIANS, THEN F*** THEM, I EVEN HATE THEM.... U EVER SEEN A PARTY MEMBER WHO HATES HIS LEADERSHIP, YEAH TRUST ME, IN SSNP IT HAPPENS.......

i respect this.

Originally Posted by getryne

IF U THINK WE SOLD OUR IDEOLOGY 2 BACHAR L2ASAD, DO U THINK BACHAR L2ASAD ASKED US TO FIGHT ISRAELIS IN 2007 ( I MEAN THE SSNP, SSNP GROUPS WERE FIGHTIN SIDE BY SIDE WITH HIZBULLAH).... I BELEIVE WE HAVE MISTAKES... MAYBE SOMEWAT DEFENDING BACHAR L2ASAD REGIME, MORE THAN IT NEEDS.... BT IF U WANNA WAT SSNP IDEOLOGY DOES, THEN WAIT 4 A SYRIAN-ISRAELI WAR, OR A LEBANESE-ISRAELI WAR.... MAYBE U CAN C A NEW 7ABIB CHARTOUNI, OR NEW SANA2 M7AYDLI.....

it is your right to fight israel.
good you were fighting with HA.

by the way...ssnp members in syria....are they allowed anywhere close to golan heights?.....i doubt.

A Lebanese israeli war......conducted by who?...Lebanese army or HA?.
if by Lebanese army......we should meet and many others on the front line.

as for habib chartouni issue,
did you know that basheer gemayel instructions saved him from certain death when he was cornered in chartoun in 1982?.
was he granted a laissez passer by Hobeika?.
destiny isn't it?.

So... do not mention his name next to Sanaa Mheidli.
as it is irrelevant.

[getryne]

u're right, ssnp isn't the 1st 2 attract different nationalities nd different religions.... kata2ib does so... u can find find in kata2ib: mwarne' from bcharre, nd mwarne' from bikfayya, nd mwarne' from beirut!!!!! common bro... am showing u the difference between kata2ib nd ssnp.... so stay around our subject

concerning koura battles.... these were yasar vs syrians(+ marada) where marada at that time was still a yamin..... and if u wanna talk abt party wings, u shouldn't be so proud of that... bachir jmayyil nd amin jmayyil 1st example.... safra massacre is another.... btw y 7abib chartouni stayed in kata2ib's prisons for abt 10 yrs without judgement, that shows u how much amin nd bachir loved each other.... ssnp,lil asaf, splitted, bt now reunited, at least we still have same beleives.....

concernig taw7id battles, forget ssnp, let's talk abt communists, r they also pro-syrians? wat abt tripoli christians? were they also pro-syrians?( btw one of the few good things i respect 4 the syrian acts in lebanon is their battle with taw7id)

concerning syrian-israeli war.... u're right we can't reach that borders... nor any other group... dont think we're so happy 4 that, not 4 syria only, same 4 jordan, nd west bank, at least israelis would never think abt entering syria.... they've learned from 1973. just imagine lebanese borders with no hizbullah(nd pro-moqawama) , imagine mircava to be our kids' toys, nd lipton tea our favorite drink....

concerning 7abib chartouni, sorry i didn't get wat u mean, on all cases, if u wanna this person better, go to historylaw.com

[El-Meghwar]

Originally Posted by IBIN BATTOUTA

A Lebanese israeli war......conducted by who?...Lebanese army or HA?.
if by Lebanese army......we should meet and many others on the front line.

7tarna ya 2ar3a , you wanna meet with all the others on the front line ? as what ? a soldier in the Lebanese Army ? if yes i'm with you !! if not you'll be a militia and not a resistance (14 of feb way of thinking), and if you'll consider yourself a resistance backing up the Lebanese Army, lei tta3eb 7elak ? a resistance is already here called hezbollah and well armed too, u can join it .

[IBIN BATTOUTA]

Originally Posted by El-Meghwar

7tarna ya 2ar3a , you wanna meet with all the others on the front line ? as what ? a soldier in the Lebanese Army ? if yes i'm with you !! if not you'll be a militia and not a resistance (14 of feb way of thinking), and if you'll consider yourself a resistance backing up the Lebanese Army, lei tta3eb 7elak ? a resistance is already here called hezbollah and well armed too, u can join it .

sorry,

i forgot that an army chief signed the cairo treaty.
and that two of them were against sending the lebanese army to the south.
(one of them displayed on your avatar as al meghwar al batal).
meanwhile march 14 sent it for the first time since 1969.
forgive them for this way of thinking.

resistance is no option.
i inherited a land in the south.
it has 5 olive trees and 10 well armed HA fighters.
i was told politely.....no access....zahhhet.
so....no other option.

i was kidding man....just to release the tension.
definitely i'll join the lebanese army.
in one condition...
the army chief to be elected not appointed.

[IBIN BATTOUTA]

Originally Posted by getryne

u're right, ssnp isn't the 1st 2 attract different nationalities nd different religions.... kata2ib does so... u can find find in kata2ib: mwarne' from bcharre, nd mwarne' from bikfayya, nd mwarne' from beirut!!!!! common bro... am showing u the difference between kata2ib nd ssnp.... so stay around our subject

i'm trying just to tell you that you are not unique in what you are doing, as your party pretends.
i'm not trying to compare you to kataeb.
so little modesty.

Originally Posted by getryne

concerning koura battles.... these were yasar vs syrians(+ marada) where marada at that time was still a yamin..... and if u wanna talk abt party wings, u shouldn't be so proud of that... bachir jmayyil nd amin jmayyil 1st example.... safra massacre is another.... btw y 7abib chartouni stayed in kata2ib's prisons for abt 10 yrs without judgement, that shows u how much amin nd bachir loved each other.... ssnp,lil asaf, splitted, bt now reunited, at least we still have same beleives.....

wish you and your party the best.
but two wings can not have the same beliefs.
what went wrong?....what was the issue?.
again don't compare yourself to kataeb.
the issue is not ssnp vs kataeb.

Originally Posted by getryne

concernig taw7id battles, forget ssnp, let's talk abt communists, r they also pro-syrians? wat abt tripoli christians? were they also pro-syrians?( btw one of the few good things i respect 4 the syrian acts in lebanon is their battle with taw7id)

by the way,
communists are invite to share opinion.

Originally Posted by getryne

concerning syrian-israeli war.... u're right we can't reach that borders... nor any other group... dont think we're so happy 4 that, not 4 syria only, same 4 jordan, nd west bank, at least israelis would never think abt entering syria.... they've learned from 1973. just imagine lebanese borders with no hizbullah(nd pro-moqawama) , imagine mircava to be our kids' toys, nd lipton tea our favorite drink....

the only thing i can not imagine is...
lebanese borders all in all without lebanese army.
as for the 1973 war, i disagree that the syrian army made an achievement.
i'm not saying but history and facts say.

Originally Posted by getryne

concerning 7abib chartouni, sorry i didn't get wat u mean, on all cases, if u wanna this person better, go to historylaw.com

as recommended i visited the site.
what i found?.
another saint who is going to heaven.
but not before taking everybody else to hell.
all are sinners except for his holiness.....

[getryne]

5 olive trees, nd 10 HA fighters... i think u should check it now... cze i think it got now 10 olive trees, nd 20 HA fighters , trust me it happens. sorry bro, i think that "mish ktir da2i2" , cze i've never seen a resistance which respects its people more then HA, a resistance which rebuilds, a resistance which consider.... btw ask the people comin from south abt 2007 war? 4 the respect of some areas, HA asked other resistance groups 2 enter nd protect the christains villages in the last war( nd i mean fighters from "jabhat al moqawama al wataniya al lubnaniyya" ) , bcz maybe if HA entered these villages, it would be some kind of non-respect..... HATS OFF....
if u hate their resistance, at least respect the way they do it

[getryne]

Originally Posted by IBIN BATTOUTA

i'm trying just to tell you that you are not unique in what you are doing, as your party pretends.
i'm not trying to compare you to kataeb.
so little modesty.


wish you and your party the best.
but two wings can not have the same beliefs.
what went wrong?....what was the issue?.
again don't compare yourself to kataeb.
the issue is not ssnp vs kataeb.


by the way,
communists are invite to share opinion.


the only thing i can not imagine is...
lebanese borders all in all without lebanese army.
as for the 1973 war, i disagree that the syrian army made an achievement.
i'm not saying but history and facts say.


as recommended i visited the site.
what i found?.
another saint who is going to heaven.
but not before taking everybody else to hell.
all are sinners except for his holiness.....

but the main subject is y SSNP always fight kata2ib, means SSNP vs. Kata2ib
anyways
different opinions in the same party, shows that this party got no holy leader, except for leader's principles..... imagine different opinions in the " taqaddomi ishtiraki", how could that happen, nd thier holy leader junblat is present...

concerning syrian-israeli war, i think that syrians won their 1st war( 1973) , nd lost the second(1982) , let's remember, at the same moment which anwar sadat nd his allies were signing salam(or istislam) with israel, syrian flags were all over qunaytra nd swayda2( the syrian liberated areas), syrians payed much blood 4 this victory, bt they achieved it( 1st arabian land 2 be liberated was on 1973).... nd concerning 1982 war, i have no doubt syrians lost..... maybe bcz they weren't fightin on their land, nd bcz their goals were the same like israelis( controling lebanon), maybe.....